Robot 6

Larsen fires back at Wacker in Spider-Man dustup

Savage Dragon #137

Savage Dragon #137

The back and forth continues about the appearance of Barack Obama in this week’s Amazing Spider-Man #583, which sports an alternate cover featuring the president-elect.

But this particular thread involves Savage Dragon creator Erik Larsen and Amazing Spider-Man editor Steve Wacker.

It began last week when Larsen posted on a message board that he feels “very betrayed” by Marvel because, in his eyes, the publisher duplicated elements from Savage Dragon #137 — namely, the incentive cover and the use of the “terrorist fist jab” — and used as a story element a shape-shifting villain masquerading as the president, which he’d done previously in an issue of his long-running series.

Then yesterday, Wacker responded with an email to Robot 6 countering Larsen’s assertions: “The idea that this was off-limits because the President-Elect had appeared on another comic cover (or that we wouldn’t have had this idea without Erik Larsen) is beyond preposterous.”

And now Larsen has fired back:

So — lemme get this straight — Steve Wacker from Marvel goes to CBR to say that Marvel never looks at CBR? How does that make sense in any reality? Of course Marvel was aware of the Dragon/Obama cover —  Quesada is very aware of Savage Dragon. Hell, he hired my creative team to work on Ash — he drew a pinup in my book — he drew a trading card with Dragon and me on it — he even had fan mail printed in my letters page.

I hear from Marvel employees all the time in regard to Savage Dragon. To deny that anybody at Marvel saw or heard about the Obama alternate cover on Savage Dragon is ridiculous. It was all over CBR and Newsarama and all over the web. Yes — presidents have appeared on the covers of Marvel comics before but never on an incentive cover and never as a publicity stunt. Typically, the appearance of a president on a cover doesn’t have any sales effect, positive or negative, so there’s do such a thing.

Obama is different. Obama is history in our life times. He’s Jackie Robinson. It makes sense for Marvel to do this. They could see how Obama’s appearance resulted in three printings of Savage Dragon and they could anticipate that an appearance on Spider-Man might bring them a lot of attention. It was a good move on their part and I don’t deny that. But — come on — would a simple acknowledgement that I did it first be so hard? And don’t you think that scooting it in under the wire in order to put a lie to the publicity I’d already received for having Obama’s first appearance as President in a comic book just a little bit underhanded?

Coincidences do happen. Four years ago, I did a story where an appearance-altering villain disguised himself as the president. If Steve Wacker didn’t read that it’s not inconceivable to me that he concocted a similar idea on his own. Stories of Presidents being replaced with evil duplicates or even robots aren’t unheard of — but don’t  insult my intelligence by claiming that Marvel never looks at Diamond’s Previews or CBR or Newsarama.

— Erik Larsen
Savage Dragon perpetrator
www.savagedragon.com
www.imagecomics.com

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Comments

214 Comments

So the Spider cover should have referenced Savage Dragon?

This is what a betrayal is?

I just checked…Steve doesn’t say that Marvel doesn’t check on CBR or know about Savage Dragon.
He says that he doesn’t follow Savage Dragon.
And he said the creators who work for him don’t plagiarize.

I don’t follow Savage Dragon either.

I did an award winning campaign video where Obama transforms into Optimus Prime. I don’t know if I did it before or after Eric’s comic…I assume after though giving the timing…did I steal from him? I did one about the fist bump too, but not with Optimus Prime.

ElCoyote's Prophet

January 16, 2009 at 2:47 pm

Let us be crystal clear here: Erik Larsen OWNS Barack Obama. No one in comics can do anything related to Barack Obama without Larsen’s consent.

Jeez, people, it’s so simple, Larsen created Obama! You wouldn’t even know about him if it weren’t for Erik Larsen!

I think Steve Wackers is a clone from the Spidey stories. I am with Erik and I understand his beef. He doesn’t want credit he wants respect. Erik the pen is mightier than the sword. How about doing a spoof where The Savage Dragon goes into an Earth-M universe of Marvel heroes and gives them a beating. All in the name of creativity. I think there should be a respect of each others ideas for a certain amount of time, this one was too close. It’s all about money. At the end of the day, the fan knows better. There is a DC camp and there is a Marvel one, people stay faithful to one or the other. Don’t sell short the fan. We respect you Erik. Marvel has become just a bunch of guys with suits and now they bully their stolen ideas. Like give it a rest already Steve. Sales are down for Spider-Man because they lack story. You took a gamble for a moment of fame. Remember Obama will not bring in you new readers. Keep your readers with fresh stories. For you who represents Marvel just shows how desperate the company has become to make a buck. Remember 70 years and how many times did Marvel swipe ideas, far too many. Maybe the Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster estates should sue everybody that copied Superman. Steve just go your way and give us better books. Do I dare say it. Is this a Wack job?

“So — lemme get this straight — Steve Wacker from Marvel goes to CBR to say that Marvel never looks at CBR?”

That’s NOT WHAT HE SAID, Erik. You might want to allow for the possibility that not everyone everywhere in comics is as up-to-the-second aware of what’s going on in Savage Dragon as you’d like. Personally, now that you came out with your arms windmilling accusing friends and colleagues of mine of plagiarism, I remember reading something some time ago about how you were doing an Obama cover. As someone, like Steve, who doesn’t follow SD regularly, I’d forgotten. Or maybe I’d gotten it confused with that Obama/McCain flipbook that some other outfit published a few weeks back (scooping everyone, BTW–why aren’t you mad at them?).

The mad rush to get this story into print wasn’t about screwing you. It was about trying to coincide with Inauguration Day. That’s a fact. I can’t read Joe Q’s mind, I wasn’t in every meeting, I can’t swear that someone at Marvel at some point didn’t go, “Huh–this means we’re stepping on Larsen’s toes.” It might have happened, it might not have. I can personally guarantee it didn’t happen on the editorial or creative level, not from my pretty informed POV.

We all know you hate the way the Spider-Man books have gone lately. You’ve, sadly, made that message louder than the “here’s what’s going on in Savage Dragon these days” message. We get it. You’re entitled to your opinion. Just as Steve’s entitled to call you on it when you accuse his writers and artists of plagiarism and it’s unfounded. But it is entirely possible that it wasn’t meant as a shot across your bow.

Oh good gravy, it’s like two jr high girls sniping at each other.

Seriously, this is embarassing for all involved. But special condemnation has to go to Larsen for just being extra jr-high teen girl BITCHY about it all. Come one, people are getting laid off left and right and Larsen thinks this is a fine time to pull this noise? Over a g*****n comic cover?

Obama’s supposed to stand for a new sense of unity. Way to just shred that, dude.

Mark Waid? This is taking a whole new life. Now I am waiting for Todd McFarlane to come to Erik’s defense. The real winner here is Kevin Melrose. Well done sir, look what web you have spun. Robot Six is the place. Keep it coming cause this is really getting interesting. This has struck a deep nerve between Image and Marvel. The popularity of Spider-Man in the 90’s is what created Image. Marvel feasted off the talent back then and still found a way to feed of them once again. Principal. That’s what it’s all about. There are many grudges between the old guard of the 90’s and welcome to the fold Mark. Now would a Superman-Obama book sell more issues than Spider-Man? I think it would. DC had principal, they did not rip Erik. They gave us back Barry Allen, Mark. You teased us all those years with an inferior Flash. Your Brave and Bold should have been called Grave and Old, thank god for George, the stories were so bad. That book dropped down so fast after a few issues. You are the reason I stopped buying them. Same reason I dropped Spider-Man. Obama might save Chrysler but not Peter Parker.

You know as much as I love Savage Dragon and like Erik, I can’t see what Marvel did here he should feel any bertrayl over. His want of acknowledgement that he had Obama on a cover first is childish.

Then there is this which I just read from Peter David’s site,

“I can totally sympathize. I remember some years back when I had a storyline in which the Hulk had to face the dilemma of giving a friend a blood transfusion in the hopes that it would cure him of AIDS. Imagine my chagrin when, a year or so later, The Savage Dragon had to face the dilemma of giving a friend a blood transfusion in the hopes that it would cure him of AIDS.

Boy, was I pissed off.

PAD”

Hmm been a few years now so I can’t remember, did Erik give a simple acknowledgement to PAD?

Call me crazy, but all this back and forth between Erik and Wacker reminds me a bit of the Conan-Colbert-Stewart “feud” of a year ago. At first it seemed silly. Then it got slightly serious. Then it erupted into the (funniest) craziest nerd fight of a lifetime.

Can we expect a Savage Dragon/Spider-Man crossover with the winner getting to call dibs on the POTUS for the next 4 (or possibly 8) years….?

Probably not. But God, I hope something like that is brewing or else both Erik and Steve just end up looking like the world’s biggest douche bags.

Hmmm… the smiley was supposed to be an ‘8’ with the closed parentheses ‘)’. Guess the computer automatically went emoticon on me. Oh well…

Mike said:

“His want of acknowledgement that he had Obama on a cover first is childish.”

It’s not just the cover. The story is nearly identical. Plagiarism, in many people’s book.

Erik Larsen called FIRSTIE. That commands respect! Coz firsties rule!

Right? Right….?

You know, Larsen has had such a rep for being passive aggresively accusatory for his entire career, I bet he’s just continuing to beat this drum to get attention for SD.

In any case, Waid expertly put a bullet between the eyes of this in his comments.

It’s simple really: Obama is a Spider-Man fan and has stated in interviews that he actually collects Marvel Comics. He’s never even heard of Savage Dragon – just like most of the world.

Marvel has every right to celebrate the inauguration of a Marvel Comics’ fan to the office of President.

Waid: “That’s NOT WHAT HE SAID, Erik.”

Waid: “Personally, now that you came out with your arms windmilling accusing friends and colleagues of mine of plagiarism,”

Wow. A lecture from how to behave when you feel aggrieved from Mark Waid.

Why not advise Erik to do what you do Mark in those circumstances; come out with your arms windmilling, invent grievances, attribute motive and indulge in some mind reading. Not to mention peppering with personal insults expletives and not to mention e-mailing death threats:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=42257

Nice to see your nettiquette rules don’t apply to yourself Mark.

Why not use your own experiences and lecture Erik on how to insult and threaten folks you believed to have wronged you? With your added CAPS and four letter words for effect?

Waid: “The mad rush to get this story into print wasn’t about screwing you.”

Oh if only the Mark Waid linked above could listen to the sage advise from the Mark Waid who just posted that. Wouldn’t seem so hilariously hypocritical. Marvel are paying you now just as Top Cow was back when you attacked Rich Johnston for his “mad rush to get ‘this’ story into print” right?

Yeah, Erik should listen to Mark ‘The Voice OfReason’ Waid, when it comes to airing grievances online.

Waid: “We all know you hate the way the Spider-Man books have gone lately. You’ve, sadly, made that message louder than the “here’s what’s going on in Savage Dragon these days” message. We get it. ”

Sadly just as you seem to be popping up more lately praising and promoting your writing for Marvel rather than BOOM these days (apart from your recent explanation to retailers as to why you were screwing them over with warning for a second time after they’d ordered boks you then put online for free).

PAD:”I can totally sympathize. I remember some years back when I had a storyline in which the Hulk had to face the dilemma of giving a friend a blood transfusion in the hopes that it would cure him of AIDS. Imagine my chagrin when, a year or so later, The Savage Dragon had to face the dilemma of giving a friend a blood transfusion in the hopes that it would cure him of AIDS.

Boy, was I pissed off.”

No wonder; Your Aids story took up the whole book, was the cover , and sported a nifty little Aids ribbon whilst spookily Larsens SD dealing with the issue, was a subplot occupying 4 poages of that issue (and 2 of the next), didn’t feature in anyway on the cover and didn’t promote itself in anyway as AIDS related.

No wonder you can totally sympathise PAD. Not to mention your plot featured the Hulk not giving his dying pal a transfusion and Erik’s sub-plot was the complete opposite, with no “DILEMMA”.

I can only imagine your chagrin as you say PAD, Larsen didn’t use aids to promote the issue, didn’t feature it on the cover, there was no dilemma in Larsen’s subplot and the antagonists dealing of the issue were diametrically opposed.

How dare Larsen include AIDS in a story after you’d done it, no wonder you’re still harping on about it 15 years later.

Mikey

“Let us be crystal clear here: Mark Waid OWNS AIDS. No one in comics can do anything related to AIDS without Waids’s consent.

Jeez, people, it’s so simple, Waid created AIDS! You wouldn’t even know about it if it weren’t for Mark Waid!”

Ouch, this came out all wrong now.

Greetings and Salutations!

It’s funny how everyone is going crazy about Barack Obama appearing in comics. First he’s in the his own comic (along with McCain) then he’s in Savage Dragon, then Spiderman, then Youngblood next and Eric Larsen is complaining about how Marvel ripped him off by having Obama in Spiderman after Dragon had him in his. I think it’s all pretty funny and I’m not sure what the fuss is all about because to me its just old news. If you live in St. Louis and/or happened to have attended the Wizard World Chicago Con this past summer , then you might know the real deal: they’re all wrong about President Elect Obama’s first comic appearance:
the first official unofficial comic about Obama was called Barack Obama: Agent of C.H.A.N.G.E and it was done by me (yeah for me).

It was a 5 page mini comic that served as the flip side to my Parade of Freaks Wizard World Chicago Special that came out at the end of May. It was drawn in early February during the heat of the Democratic Primaries. The illustration first appeared in the St. Louis Arts and Entertainment website Playbacks:STL in January: http://www.playbackstl.com/content/view/7162/269/ (obviously someone loves him some Steranko). Then the actual comic appeared on my website Parade of Freaks. You can see it here for free: http://www.paradeoffreaks.com/2008/06/02/agent-of-change-page-1/ or buy it from Indy Planet for $1.99 at http://www.indyplanet.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1089 .

I know this may seem like some shameless promotion by a no name, wannabe comic creator (and it is) but also it’s about giving a nod to the Indie world for once again setting the trend that the mainstream follows and claims as their own. The biggest problem here is that unless you were among the 50 or so people who picked up my book or even saw it at WWC, then you wouldn’t have known it existed. And actually I’m not a complete no name because I’ve had stuff published in national magazines before (Two Drink Minimum and Playback:STL) as well as being a December 2007 Contestant on Zuda Comics.

So anyways, I guess now you all know.

But as far as the mainstream goes, Larsen and Dragon were the first. Give credit where credit is due.

Cheers,
Carlos Gabriel Ruiz

Geez. I haven’t read this yet (plan to) but I think it takes a bigger man “not” to respond. This is turning into a catfight.

I’m with Rolando on this one. This needs to escalate (or degenerate depending on how you look at it) into a Colbert/ Conan/ Stewart type of feud. Right now its just silly, but it could become awesome. How ’bout a boxing match at this years New York Comic Con, loser has to wear a chicken suit for the rest of the ‘Con appearances for the year. Its not that far fetched. Just ask Todd MacFarlane where to get one.

Wow.

Why the hell should anyone give credit to someone for using a PUBLIC FIGURE in their book?

This “debate,” for a lack of a better word, is ridiculous. Larsen is really coming off like a petulant child with this “I saw it first!” argument.

To plagiarize a poster on yesterday’s boards.

“GEEEEEKFIGHT!!!!”

This is what Round 2 now. Is the winner the guy who drops this ridiculousness first or the one who keeps going?

ElCoyote's Prophet

January 17, 2009 at 1:29 pm

I’ll tell you why I’m enjoying this: Erik Larsen shit on my pancakes at an IHOP in San Diego in 1994 and I will NEVER FORGET!

NEVER!

The one who takes an actual comic panel from either Savage Dragon or Spidey and manips it to reference this specific geek-fight is the true winner. As are we all.

Savage Dragon and Amazing Spider-Man (I have no opinion regarding Mark Waid) both suck anyway, so this is dumb.

Barack Obama is cool.

NOW HULK WANT COVER WITH OBAMA!

OR HULK SMASH PUNY PET DRAGON AND PUNY SPIDER BUG!

RAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Methinks Erik, the well-known King Of Original Ideas, is a little bit bored. Can’t think of any other reason for all this verbal nonsense. What would he have Marvel do – add the text “Obama cover concept originally pioneered by Erik Larsen”? And to keep things balanced and fair, how about “Giant Muscular Green-skinned character originally pioneered by Marvel Comics”?.

Or maybe it’s just sour grapes. BBC News ran a story on the Spidey cover over here, but I don’t remember seeing one about the Dragon cover.

Captain America

January 17, 2009 at 1:50 pm

There is only one way to settle this.

Savage Dragon and Spider-Man must do battle.

PS: Spidey’s got 2 more movies coming out and Im getting a movie in 2011, is Dragon? ;)

I have come to the stunning, scientifically-calculated conclusion that Erik Larsen is retarded and Steve Wacker will probably respond to this retardation, possibly making him a worse person than Larsen for getting into an argument with the mentally handicapped.

As an aside to Mikey Crotty, you are a crazy person and you need to find something to do.

Wow. This whole thing has turned into a bad high school fight between two different clique groups.
It’s seriously embarrassing for us fans to watch grown men that are comic book creators have a tiff like this.
How about taking this to private email boys and trying to resolve it there?
I just want to read about what’s going on in the comic book world and with some of my favourite books and characters – Not how my favourite creators that I thought I respected feeling the need to flame each other.

ADDENDUM: User “Your Mom” has the right idea.

Hawkangel: I dunno, I think it’s kind of bizarre and fascinating. I hope that this goes on for months, actually, because that would actually be the funniest thing EVER.

All I have to say is “BOO HOO” for Erik. Get over it you baby.
Though Wacker isn’t scoring any points either.

Well after reading this I have to agree with Eric Larson so much that I will now illegally download all of his work to see what else Marvel has stolen from him. I’ll get to the bottom of this no matter how many comics I will illegally download of Larsons work to repair his impuned reputation. After all who needs monatary support when you can have the knowledge that Marvel stole your work.

off to download lalalalallala

This “fight” is a couple notches below the the “Liefield vs Larson” (speaking of which, why isn’t Rob L throwing his 2 cents in here since he’s got that shameless Youngblood/Obama thing coming out) message board battle royale a few years back… Both sides need to shut up and let both of their bad decisions be… Now before I get going on my rant let me say that I supported Obama in the primaries, volunteered for him during the presidential run, and am overjoyed that he’ll be president in a couple days… Also, I’m huge Spider-fan and although I’ve sorta forsaken the “Amazing” title since about the second Straczynski arc and am still writhing in disbelief at decision for “One More Day” and the subsequent “Brand New Day” (sorry Bachalo, McNiven, and Martin. You deserve better editorial vision and better writers.) I still see unlimited possibilities for this character we all love (for example, Harris and Lapham’s recent Marvel Knights series). That however does not take the sting away from these offenses. I know a lot of useless crap is being sold with Obama’s likeness right now, do comics really need to stoop to the level of whatever QVC is selling at this hour? We’re better than that. We’re a community that for the most part loves the storytelling form and being that we live in the one country where one genre rules the industry we like and keep up with our superheroes. Now, I know this is just how Quesada operates and a handful of his (well, and to be fair Bill Jemas’s) past attempts to court mainstream media coverage have actually been good for the publisher and comics in general, but if they’re going to pull a stunt like this would it kill them to get some name talent on such a high profile project or at least someone who knows how to draw Obama. Seriously, Todd Nuack? Last time I checked he was “Marvel Adventures” material… So those are my inconsequential beefs. What really has me steamed is this glimpse at the return of the speculator market that we saw as a result of this stunt. Did the 90s teach us nothing? I heard about the crowds and lines and all I could think of was this kind of stuff taking over, the bubble bursting again, and our beloved art form finally being decimated by throngs of morons who don’t care about content and don’t get that higher print runs means less valuable… I know it’s dramatic, but just watch… I guarantee Marvel put out a foil or die-cut or whatever new gimmick cover by the end of 2009. Oh, and for anyone who’s wondering why I barely touched on Savage Dragon, the only people who care about Savage Dragon are Savage Dragon fans and I know none…

the fact is if savage dragon got all the media attention and spider-man didn’t, he’d have NOTHING to say. larson should just be content with the fact that he did it first, he can’t honestly of thought he’d be the last…

Just wait until the Sarah Palin/Tarot crossover to come. Then you’ll all be sorry.

Although I feel that cooler heads should prevail in this circumstance, I do find it funny- and oddly reassuring- that comic creators are just as capable of engaging in pointless internet squabbles as the rest of us posters. Just makes them seem more human and relatable in my eyes, I guess.

i can understand larsen’s point of view to a point. i haven’t read either comic, and don’t plan to, but if they are similar in story, then i can understand his beef. however, why don’t they just both acknowledge the fact that they both were trying to cash in on the new president? the only thing in their eyes wasn’t about ripping off someone else’s story or being known as the first to think of it all, just both agree that money was all they had in their site. “Hmmm, we’ve got a new president, and he’s part black and everyone admits it’s a big deal, what can we do to make some money off this?” I think Disney should get upset that they didn’t think of that first, and then put out a bunch of incentive covers to their movies with a Disney character and Obama on the front! Obama on Disney Blu-Ray! Even more magical than usual!

i can understand larsen’s point of view to a point. i haven’t read either comic, and don’t plan to, but if they are similar in story, then i can understand his beef. however, why don’t they just both acknowledge the fact that they both were trying to cash in on the new president? the only thing in their eyes wasn’t about ripping off someone else’s story or being known as the first to think of it all, just both agree that money was all they had in their mind.

“Hmmm, we’ve got a new president, and he’s part black and everyone admits it’s a big deal, what can we do to make some money off this?”

I think Disney should get upset that they didn’t think of that first, and then put out a bunch of incentive covers to their movies with a Disney character and Obama on the front! Obama on Disney Blu-Ray! Even more magical than usual!

oops … site was supposed to be mind.

Good Lord this Erik Larsen fellow is so disingenuous. Now his big complaint is that the fact he had Obama on a cover of his comic book before Marvel isn’t being acknowledged. Larsen writes “But — come on — would a simple acknowledgement that I did it first be so hard?” Really. Since when was that the issue? When was that in doubt? I think everyone realizes Larsen did it first. So what is the real problem? I think it’s that Erik likes attention.

Was Erik’s shape-shifting president alien before the shape-shifting president alien in JSA Virtue & Vice?

Isn’t it about time that Marvel screwed Larsen and the Image Crew over for leaving them high and dry when the left in the early 90’s. Sorry that it took them more than 10 years to do it, but it is about time!!!

Make Mine Wacker!

Anyone ask Obama what he thinks about all of this?? I mean Sam Jackson in the Ultimates was fine, at Least millar asked if they could use his likeness.

Hey Obama, if you read these boards..ask marvel to print a Black Panther Essential trade for black history month.

Ok, are we serious here? Erik Larsen is going to sit here and complain about bullshit like this? Who cares!!!! This is why the medium gets so much shit from everyone that doesn’t read comics/graphic-novels. The creators act like they’re 12 years old! Who cares if Obama is on more then one comic, it is history in the making. Just like Erik said, he’s the new Jackie Robinson, etc.

It’s embarrassing to read bullshit like this. It’s freakin’ silly. Just do your job as E-I-C at Image and not worry about what is being said on the intrawebs. The posters don’t care, I certainly don’t. I just read this shit and think, “God what children.” Grow up guys. Seriously.

And guess what, a lot of people don’t read Diamond Previews because you know what… It’s not worth the price of admission. I rather read CBR or Newsarama or nothing at all.

I liked it better when Erik was simply the guy who took over when McFarlane left “Amazing” too, but why is no one taking Marvel to task on this???

Come on, Erik… Barack Obama IS President of United States Anybody should do what they can with him in a nice way. At least, you don’t do Spider-Man lately, just Savage Dragon. I do respect what you’re doing with your own work. Obama is just everybody’s President of entire United States, no buts and ifs.

Like most people, I’ve never read a single issue of Savage Dragon and am mostly unaware of its existence aside from a few passing references here and there over the years–and after seeing Larson make such an embarrassment of himself, I have no intention of changing that status. Meanwhile, Mark Waid comes off just as childish with his response. Come on, people–this isn’t kindergarten. Grow up and have some self-respect and common sense the next time you decide to post something for the public to read. Take a tip from Peter David, whose input on this situation was dead-on and indicative of why he is a household name whose writing is much respected and far more widely read and recognized than Savage Dragon (which, for all Larson’s infantile rhetoric about having been ripped off by Marvel, just looks like the Hulk in a suit with a spike on his head).

Trying to think on how to rank this betrayal of Mr Larsen by Marvel Comics. It probably ranks higher than Benedict Arnold’s and the whole Caesar/Brutus thing. Lando betrayed Han and Chewie, but ended up a good guy.

If this is what Obama inspires out of creators like Mr. Larsen, it is going to be a long four years.

it’s pretty obvious marvel copied the idea from Savage Dragon…

Savage Dragon also happens to be a better book than Spider-Man, also.

Marvel: the House of Recycled Ideas!

Mark Waid and Steve Wacker can respond or not respond to Erik Larsen in any forum they choose. A lot of Ms. Manners on this board. Perhaps pistols at dawn is more appropriate? Larsen is accusing creators of plagiarism that work with both of them, which is very serious charge and can end careers.

..

I love you Mark Waid.

The summer of your career is gone, welcome to the winter of discontent.

..

Really, more of this?!? I really hope that Erik Larsen reads this thread and realizes how ridiculous and childish he seems. He is a profession creator, a former editor in chief. Pull yourself together and stop blogging on comic sites airing your dirty laundry as though this is TMZ. Granted, Steve Wacker shouldn’t have responded with his comment either (and frankly as a Marvel employee I would expect that someone would have stopped him).

Larsen is helping juvenilize the comic industry and create bad press to a PR event that has brought positive attention to the comic industry. (And I would expect that as a creative professional he would refrain using ridiculous terminology as “publicity stunt”.) Again, if you have a problem, be an adult and a professional and bring it directly to Wacker/Quesada/Marvel, don’t blog like Lindsay Lohan and bring negative attention to comics as a result. It’s obnoxious.

At least this time Larsen didn’t comment under “Name Withheld.”

I’m a regular CBR reader, and an Obama-maniac, and the Savage Dragon / Obama cover completely went under my radar. This is a surprise to me.

Loved the Spidey/Obama issue tho! I wish the whole book was an Obama story instead of just a supplemental!

I’m really not used to seeing Erik Larsen as so whiney. I like Larsen and all but grow up with this “I did it first” garbage. This isn’t third grade.

Larsen made an accusation of plagiarism. Wacker was right not to ignore that, It was BS. If the issue in could be considered plagiarism, then so could most comic books published today, including Larsen’s.

Let’s hope this is the end of this.

…and I like it that professional creators are mixing it up on message boards – why shouldn’t they? Everyone’s got twitter and facebook and myspace … it’s a brave new world. Embrace change!

does Larsen want Wacker to just give him credit for doing it first or does he really want obama to be off limits from appearing on any other comic covers?

Erik said ” I hear from Marvel employees all the time in regard to Savage Dragon.”

Good to know that Marvel waits around each month to see what Erik is doing in Savage Dragon so that they can copy it. sheeeeeeesshhh

To Brian Hancock

January 17, 2009 at 4:23 pm

First off sure, Steve and Mark can reply to this non-sense, but what’s the point? Erik first off made a ridiculous acquisition and his reply basically backs-off his initial claim. To me, Mark & Steve responding makes this even stupider and shows the blatant miscues with the medium in the first place. It shows it’s ran by 3rd graders which is why the medium gets (Comics are for kids, nerds, etc.) When the medium should be used to produce works like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Wanted, We3, The Sandman, Maus, Swamp Thing, etc.

Not a geek-fest of who put Barack Obama in their book. First off, not a lot people read Savage Dragon but a lot of people read Amazing Spider-Man. It’s the facts, it’s why it’s selling on eBay for almost a $100.00 And for you Brian to even assert yourself as well on this manner is retarded to begin with. I don’t have to be Ms. Manners, I’m not working for a comic book publisher. Trust me, if Erik did this crap with a Fortune 500 company, he’d be fired. It’s about being professional and this medium is clearly not that. Look at the blunders of Final Crisis and Secret Invasion, it’s about making a profit, not producing quality stories that can be optioned as a movie, tv show or cartoon. That’s how you make the real money. This whole “beef” is stupid and needs to be called out.

ACT LIKE PROFESSIONALS, NOT HIGH-SCHOOL STUDENTS OR “INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD POSTERS!” Dorks.

With such spectacular whining by Wacker, Waid and Larsen is it any wonder why the comics industry isn’t at a high point.
And of course the source of all this evil, the Obama.
Uniter? Hah! Can’t even get a bunch of Demos to play nice with each other.
The world is doomed… DOOMED….!!!
This hysterical message brought to you by the past eight years of hyperbole and outrage.
Being loopy sure is fun.

Mr. Larsen, if credit is what this is about then you should focus your displeasure with the people responsible and it’s not Marvel….

Clearly it is the ignorance and lazy fact-checking of the journalists who aired the stories. I saw many anchors claim it was Obama’s first appearance in a comic when anyone who actually reads comics(or at least sites like this) would’ve easily known different.

Once the damage is done it would be naive to think Marvel would spend any resources to correct them. Even if they did I find it hard to believe that any of the news services would give this issue any attention at all.

Some of you may have not realized this, but what Erik has done with this argument has been an accomplishment on it’s own, whether intentional or not. It has gotten everyone in here mentioning and thinking of Savage Dragon. Now that doesnt mean everyone will be springing into action just to pick up the next copy (or Obama cover), but it’s certainly more publicity that book has gotten since it first came out in my opinion. I think I have the first 10-20, and that’s it.

It’s not like his acts are going to make everyone STOP reading Savage Dragon, because lets be honest, no one reads it in the first place. However, it may intrigue some of you to skim through the next few issues just to see what Larsen does, if he takes this that far to relate it in his book.

ElCoyote's Prophet

January 17, 2009 at 5:36 pm

I’m gonna pitch a Savage Fin comic to Marvel, toot sweet.

WTF!? Check out the “Advance Image Solicitations” for Arpil 09:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19587

Two books worthy of mention, “Smash” which has a very Hulk-like character on the cover (give me a break), and an H.P. Lovecraft book that looks very similar to the ones put out by MAX a few months ago that were drawn by Corben.

Talk about taking ideas from other books :|

All whining aside, look at things like this:

Obama gets an issue of Spider-Man with his face on the cover in his collection.

His reply to seeing Savage Dragon? “Why am I with the creature from the black lagoon?”

If Obama collected SD instead of Spidey, Larsen might have half an argument. He’s pulling stunts.

The president is a Spidey fan. Case closed.

Relique du Madde

January 17, 2009 at 5:45 pm

If it makes Larsen feel better, according to the latest Marvel release, the Thunderbolts are going to try and assassinate the president. Maybe the next issue of Savage Dragon can have Savage Dragon Save Obama from an assassination attempt.

The Amazing Spider-Man

January 17, 2009 at 5:52 pm

Savage who?

*fist bumps prez*

I hope Larsen reads and responds to all of this. I’m curious if he’s aware of how ridiculous and immature he made himself look with this stupid stunt, and i wonder if he understands how badly this kind of thing can damage his reputation (or, given how few people even know of Savage Dragon, create one for him…maybe that was why he did this in the first place, come to think of it).

Wow. An authority figure replaced by a shape-shifting villain. What a novel idea!

It has only been done 6.564 times before. But when Erik Larsen does it, it’s special.

I remember when comic fans used to talk about who’d win in a fight or what happened in issue #___ of choose your favourite superhero book.

Now it’s about following which creator slagged off a different creator.

I don’t read SD, I do read Spidey, I don’t care who is right or wrong in such a morally ambiguous situation.

That’s just it, Sid–no one reads Savage Dragon. That’s why Larsen is acting so embarrassingly pissy–he’s trying to drum up business for a title people don’t notice much, by pretending someone ripped him off, which clearly didn’t happen.

Whoever’s right here — and possibly both sides are being totally honest with what they know — wouldn’t the most Obamaesque approach to this be to say, “Look, let’s try to work together here. We’re on the eve of some desperately-needed change in our country after years of angry partisan rancor, and we don’t need to come up with new stuff to fight about at this exact moment, especially when it’s all about stories in which our respective heroic characters are being shown supporting the new president these hopes are pinned on”? I mean, if Obama is reaching out to all kinds of people who have been fierce opponents of his, wouldn’t it be kind of cool to emulate his approach on what is practically the eve of his inauguration, and try to give each other the benefit of the doubt, and maybe move away from the kind of anger and divisiveness we’ve been struggling with for years in this country?

I probably sound like Pollyanna but dammit, I’m so pleased and relieved that Obama’s taking office, and that he’s reaching out to people on all sides (including ones I strongly disagree with and dislike) rather than playing games of Schadenfreude. That’s … just cool. :) So I’d like to think that the people who write these beloved heroic characters can also try to be on good terms with each other given the kind of bridge-building change Obama is working on.

David

Mr. Larsen

Put me out of my misery.

No ones loved me since 95.

If you won’t kill me, try foil covers. People still love foil covers, right?

is the story really nearly identical between the two?
i haven’t read the savage dragon issue, but i really hope Erik did a better job on the story than the spidey issue…. it read like one of the free spidey issues i got in the nineties when he was battling peer pressure or teen smoking… I mean to say that the story in thwe spiderman issue was lame as hell. the main story was obviously for adults. dealing with mature themes of relationships and deep friendships, and then we are handed a crappy second story about Obama where the Chameleon hasn’t even head of basketball. seriously. marvel dropped the ball on giving us a lame story and art by some guy with no idea of what obama looks like…. i couldn’t tell if it was Obama, or OJ or generic black guy.

image was built on taking ideas from marvel.
Erik even created a savage dragon character in marvel before he left to form marvel.
he looked pretty much the exact same. and was featured in marvel comics presents as a wolverine villain.

I don’t even think it’s the real Mark Waid that replied in discussion since obviously anyone can type whatever in the “Your name” box to reply below.

Anyway, Larsen is just one sad person trying to claiming everything at Marvel are all the Image founder’s ideas. Come one Larsen get a life already. I think it’s great that Larsen is the writer, artist and sometime letterer of your own book. I’m glad that Larsen isn’t the Publisher of Image because this is the second most embarrassing thing to happened to the company since Robert Kirkman call for creators to leave Marvel or DC and to join him at Image.

Get a life Larsen.

Mike- Larsen DID give credit to PAD for the A.I.D.S. story. It was in the letter page. I know because I have never read or heard of the Hulk story at the time, but I became well aware of it after reading Savage Dragon.

I’m just astounded at how many commenters here failed to read the actual words of the people being quoted.

Damn, this makes Larsen look amazingly petty.

there is no clear cut right or wrong in this debate. as with many things in life, it boils down to personal taste, or rather, personal belief.

if you’re anti-marvel, or a fan of Savage Dragon, then there is nothing to convince you that Marvel and the Spidey books have done something bad and immoral.

if you’re pro-Marvel, and dislike Image, Erik Larsen, and so forth- nothing is going to convince you that he has a valid point.

so you see? none of this arguing solves anything because noone is going to bend to the other’s perspectives. their minds are ALREADY made up.

i do long for the days when comic professionals were professionals. that isn’t to say i think one side is more guilty than the other- but you know, if you’ve got a beef- whether its Erik Larsen or an outraged Steve Wacker, or a defensive Mark Waid- you could always, i don’t know, take advantage of calling the person you’ve got a beef with. rather than advertise it in a forum that you are AWARE will fan the flames of debate.

its like these guys, all 3 of them, with a combined age of over 105 years old, wanted to instigate things, rather than call up. Erik, next time, call Steve Wacker and tell him you’re gonna kick his ass. Forums do nothing but split people down the middle.

anyway, people vote with their wallets. it isn’t like people buy Spider-Man because they read it and think “this is so good”. Its the mentality that, i grew up with this, i need this comfort, this re-hashing, constantly. Mark Waid calls this being a loyalist, i don’t know.

everyone, deep breaths. we’re supposed to unite now, right? if you don’t like Marvel or the Spidey books now, you don’t need this scandal to keep disliking them. your minds were made up.

Erik, if you think you deserve more respect- you’ve obviously made it clear how chummy you are with Marvel’s Editior-and-Chief. Give him a call. I’m sure he’ll listen.

detourne
January 17, 2009 at 7:18 pm

image was built on taking ideas from marvel.
Erik even created a savage dragon character in marvel before he left to form marvel.
he looked pretty much the exact same. and was featured in marvel comics presents as a wolverine villain.
************************************************************************

Detourne,

Erik had created Dragon long before he got work from Marvel. Dragon was Erik’s childhood creation, and a bunch of his early Dragon stories were published before his Marvel days. Get your facts straight.

THe Image of today is going stonger than ever with original ideas while Marvel is playing with the same old characters form 1963. How many times can Aunt May Die? How many people can Wolvirine kill already? How many times has Magneto come back to life? How many times can Spidey’s past be revamped. The shit is STALE.

WIth titles like Elephantmen, Godland, Savage Dragon, Invincible, Walking Dead, Astounding Wolfman, Brit, Dynamo 5, Perhapanauts, Madman, Mice Templar, Jersey Gods, Spawn, The Amazing Joy Buzzards, and Firebreather….. I have to say, MAKE MINE IMAGE!

Man… I wish Mark Waid were my dad…

Seriously now, Erik is acting like a stubborn kid and… wait a minute… doesn’t he always does?

screw it! Mark, Finish him!

This ‘controversy’ is a whole lotta nothing. Let it go, no one gives a crap.

Erik is right people!

I sold my soul to him some months ago, he friggin owns me! Listen to the man god dammit!

yeah. it was Muhammad Ali’s birthday today, you know.

why is everyone attacking larsen. is it that hard to believe marvel ripped off an idea from another publisher because it made sweet green?he isn’t looking for an “erik larsen original idea” stamp on the issue. just calling marvel out. if wacker(who is a great editor) wants to deny this, thats cool. Marvel has zero credibilty with their statements as they have misled fans and obfscucated the facts many times before, over books schedules and upcoming events.
i think mark waid should hold his peace. i understand he wants to defend a friend but the way he criticizes erik for ragging on brand new day doesn’t seem that different from the way he has expressed his displeasure at the direction of books he has worked on.

I’m with Wacker. I remember Larsen when he was back on the Bendis boards. He is irrational and confrontational for absolutely no reason. The guy just likes to pick fights even when he has no intellectual grounds to stand on. He is unable to form a cohesive argument and creates false arguments as can be seen above and others have noted.
From his post, he appears to think that he is owed something. He does not own Obama. Special interests own Obama. As Wacker noted, there is nothing original about putting an image of a president with a super-hero. At this point, Larsen is just trying to generate buzz about his book based on the superior Spider-Man books. I applaud Wacker for standing up to this whiner and hope he ignores this retort as Marvel should be bigger than a dispute with a has-been

Hey Larsen,

If you like it then you shoulda put a ring on it.

You are completely in the wrong here and I am sure that you will never acknowledge it. Take a step back, wipe the tears out of your eyes and look at the situation. There is a public figure in a comic. Unless you live in some pre Civil War dream world, you do not own said public figure. You will not get Watchmen settlement money from this. You may get a free Spidey notepad from Marvel HQ. Salvage the little dignity you have left.

on further thought, Erik should ask his labelmate Rob about such questionable characters like Smash!, Doom’s IV, etc. :P sorry, i couldn’t resist.

If Erik wants to create a swipe proof concept – he could always do a Savage Dragon/Cheney arc and cover – Im pretty sure no one else is pursuing that “idea”. Errr wait a second – I just heard that Morrison has the vanquished Darkseid worshiping Dick in Final Crisis 7.

Looks like my post was deleted. I guess telling the truth is frowned upon. Thanks free speech.

ANYWAY, editors need to get back to EDITING their books and not worrying about trivial internet articles.

pbnorbs@yahoo.com

January 17, 2009 at 9:20 pm

Go Erik Go!!

Wacker and Quesada have nothing compared to you!!

This problem would have never occurred it Larsen has put his comic out first. But we do know about Image meeting a deadline so…

Now all we need is Mephisto and some magic.

Im just glad no one is talking about One More Day any more.

Its Obama we dont have to explain.

I would have preferred it if Marvel had done a separate books with that Obama guy instead of forcing people to buy a comic with that crook in it.

I was going to check out Savage Dragon until Larson did that stupid endorsement of the Obama and when that happened I walked away and will not consider reading it anymore.
I’m really annoyed Marvel forced me to have a book with the Obama in it in my collection. I’m seriously considering simply cutting those pages out and burning them.

Rather than engaging in an online pissing match, I think it would be more fruitful for Wacker to talk to Larsen about doing more work on Spider-Man. I gather from his comments he isn’t too aware of Larsen or his work, but y’know, a few copies of Spider-Man books were sold during his tenure. I know it’s shocking; I too once thought nothing worthwhile existed before I came into comics. Live and learn.

So apparently when Marvel plagiarizes and steals from another comic book company, they are given a pat on the back. But when they are called on it, the victims are subject to the derision of the fans and made out like lunatics by the online hackjobs employed by the House of Ideas.

Larsen’s only sin here was being naive enough to think he’d get a fair hearing instead of being the victim of an online lynching.

Truth, to be fair, judging from the description, Image’s HP Lovecraft project owes far more to Vertigo’s Lovecraft graphic novel where Keith Giffen adapted Hans Rodinoff’s unproduced screenplay than it does to Marvel MAX’s Haunt of Horror miniseries where Richard Corben directly adapted actual Lovecraft stories.

Er, hasn’t marvel JUST finished a whole company wide crossover dealin with shapeshifting aliens? (true, the Spidey story doesn’t use the Skrulls….)

Hasn’t Obama come out and explicitly said he’s a Spidey fan?

How does the Spiderman story not write itself?

Janus:

“I think everyone realizes Larsen did it first. So what is the real problem?”

Maybe comics fans realize it (though I tend to doubt it because Savage Dragon last I remember checking was selling roughly 6,000 copies a month versus the what, 80,000-90,000 copies for Spidey?), but the general public- which is the vast majority of the population vs. comics geeks – doesn’t know it because Marvel got all the publicity – arguably through falsely presented publicity. “Truth” is often just what the (often completely ignorant) majority perceive it to be. So the real problem is with perception, not the reality.

So I guess that Dark Horse Sarah Palin/Hellboy battleing the shape changing demon that replaced Obama comic will be put on hold.

Really, does this effect any of us personally?

In November an interview with Obama came out where he said he collected two comics: Spider-Man and Conan.
In December Marvel rushed a story out so it could be released in January before Obama’s inauguration. Does anyone realistically think Marvel wouldn’t have done this?

Is this even an issue outside of Erik Larsen’s paranoia and internet conspiracy theorists?

Wow.

That SMASH book… just…wow. Talk about plagiarism.

Marvel should sue Image back to the stone-age for ripping-off the Hulk.

Oh, snaaap!

You know what, Erik? You should SUE Marvel!

Now there’s a good idea.

Why won’t the TV Media cover this epic geek fight?!

What I said earlier not withstanding, I by no means side with Larsen. (Nor do I particularly side with Wacker / Marvel on this – personally I couldn’t give a crap less about Barack Obama – or any other celebrity, be it political or entertainment – being in ANY comic., and find the whole issue a ridiculous matter to begin with.)

Larsen is one of the biggest crybabies in comics. And considering how big a crybaby some of the others are, that’s saying something…

Never mind all this…
I just wanna hear Obama’s views on the Spider-marriage dammit!!

>>>Wow.

That SMASH book… just…wow. Talk about plagiarism.

Marvel should sue Image back to the stone-age for ripping-off the Hulk.<<<

What you guys have to understand, one day, is that there is no “Image” to sue on something like this. “Image” didn’t come up with Smash, “Image” doesn’t own Smash. I guess Rob Liefeld did. So if Marvel want to sue somebody, it would be him.
And this has to do with Erik Larsen: Nothing.

Absolutely Pathetic.

Mr Larsen.

If you are going to have an argument with somebody, then at least read what they are saying and respond to what is written. Not to what you imagine has been written. Yes Obama was in Savage Dragon first, nobody is disputing that. But to suggest that the idea to have Obama appear in a comic was yours alone is a nonsense. As soon as he said he was a Spiderman fan and as soon as he became elected, the story had indeed written itself and was inevitable. It could even be argued (if you wanted to be petty and childish) that the only reason he appeared in your comic, was that you knew full well that Marvel, based on the public knowledge that he was a Spiderman fan, were going to publish a story with Obama meeting him.

What you guys have to understand, one day, is that there is no “IMarvel” to sue on something like this. “Marvel” didn’t come up with Obama, “Marvel” doesn’t own Obama. I guess Barack Obama. So if Erik Larsenl want to sue somebody, it would be him.
And this has to do with Marvel: Nothing.

@darrenmedr
Your first sentence is pretty funny regarding the fact that Larsen never claims or suggests that the idea of having Obama appear in a comic is his alone.

‘Smash’ looks… huh. So the Purple Hulk is actually Jack Kirby, and was created by the same scientific team that gave us Captain America?
Oh wow, that’s original, that is…

@Bendrix

Sorry I should have made it clearer. I was responding to the Marvel never looks at CBR bit, where Mr Larsen was responding to Mr Wacker’s comment about him not reading Savage Dragon.

I also think that the original posting reported clearly states that Mr Larsen believes that Marvel stole his idea. I have only read the three entries on here and maybe if I read the original thread that you started I will get a clearer and fuller picture of events.

@darrenmdr
Ok, I see. You are right on this. Still leaves the question why Wacker mentiones that he does not read Savage Dragon it in his defense at all.

And he (and me too) believes that Marvel stole his idea of a) putting Obama on a cover b) a variant cover c) as a publicity stunt. It’s the combination of those. The fist bump being another similarity that doesn’t look like such an independent idea in the light of the points mentioned before.

Marvel is just too big, ask the Foo Fighters. Remember their lawsuit against Marve last year. Heck if they can steal ideas, they can steal music too. Captain Marvel wants his title back. Remember that too? Then a year before that Stan Lee sued them also. All is fine in Marvel land, nothing different.

Still leaves the question why Wacker mentiones that he does not read Savage Dragon it in his defense at all.

Yes from looking at it. It does seem to be Mr Larsen is having a go at Marvel as an entity rather than any individual. (for a change. I know that’s bitchy but I’ve been at work since 6 this morning :-) ) Why Mr Wacker has interpreted it as a personal attack and responded in that way I have no idea. There may be and probably is a lot more not being said. If that makes any sense at all.

Still leaves the question why Wacker mentiones that he does not read Savage Dragon it in his defense at all.

Yes from looking at it. It does seem to be Mr Larsen is having a go at Marvel as an entity rather than any individual. (for a change. I know that’s bitchy but I’ve been at work since 6 this morning :-) ) Why Mr Wacker has interpreted it as a personal attack and responded in that way I have no idea. The two most logical conclusions are that a) he feels aggrieved and is acting as a spokesman for the Company. Not really his job I suppose,(or is it ?) but certainly within his rights to defend something he is involved with or b) Guilty Consiounce (can’t spell today) There may be and probably is a lot more not being said. If that makes any sense at all.

so did obama steal the fist jab from erik?

Eric Larsen is blaming Marvel for stealing his thunder and is complaining that he wants acknowledgement for putting Obama in his comic first. Its an effort to drum interest in Savage Dragon and other Image titles at the expense of Marvel. It seems its just another “HERE IS WHY IMAGE IS BETTER THAN MARVEL” line from him. More of the same, different circumstances. If you like Spider-Man buy Marvel, if you like Savage Dragon buy Image,if you like Barack Obama, buy both.

I’m sure our president-elect is so very proud of both parties involved by now.

It’s clear there are two groups of fans posting on here. The clear-minded, rational people who realise Erik Larson doesn’t have a leg to stand on here, and the blind, frothing-at-the-mouth, raving Savage Dragon fanboys, tripping over themselves to kiss Larson’s ass and throw personal insults at Wacker, Waid and Peter David, evidently spouting off rubbish from an at-best uninformed perspective.

Erik Larson… get over yourself. I assume right now you must be locked up in some kind of opium den, getting high off your own creative genius and intense originality. Please, do yourself a favor, and step outside. As you walk down the street, you’ll likely see Obama’s face on billboards and television screens. But step inside the newsagent. Take a look around. You’ll see Obama’s face on the cover of Spider-Man, yes. But you’ll also see his face on the cover of newspapers, TV guides, GQ magazine, everywhere. I hope you remembered to bring your notepad with you. You’ll have to take a note of a whole lot of names of people to groundlessly accuse of plagarism. Since, of course, nobody would have thought of increasing sales by putting Obama’s face on the cover of their publication if you hadn’t struck oil with it first. I repeat… get over yourself. Obama’s face is everywhere right now, his face is money. Marvel is just cashing in on the zeitgeist to make a quick, easy buck. Much like you did.

I love how Wacker pretty much schooled Larson. Totally made him look ridiculous, and a fool, with how he totally dismantled his petty, baseless case for “betrayal”. And because Larson had no answer for the variety of valid points Wacker raised… Larson ignores them all, and fabricates some arguments he CAN respond to, before falsely atributing them to Wacker. It seems we’re already at the stage where Larson is only pressing on with this because he’s too embarassed to back down, or admit he is wrong.

I highly doubt Larson feels “betrayed” by Marvel. To me, he just seems pissed that his Obama cash-in went largely under the radar, while Marvel’s attracted huge lines stretching right out of comic stores and actually attracted the attention of the mainstream. Larson is quick to boast about his Obama story being featured on Comic Book Resources. His appearance in Amazing Spider-Man made national (and international!) headlines. Seems more to me like Larson’s being troubled by the green-eyed monster. And I don’t mean Savage Dragon. Either that or he’s trying to get some exposure on himself so he can shill his upcoming Youngblood Obama cash-in.

ElCoyote's Prophet

January 18, 2009 at 6:49 am

“It’s clear there are two groups of fans posting on here. The clear-minded, rational people who realise Erik Larson doesn’t have a leg to stand on here, and the blind, frothing-at-the-mouth, raving Savage Dragon fanboys, tripping over themselves to kiss Larson’s ass and throw personal insults at Wacker, Waid and Peter David, evidently spouting off rubbish from an at-best uninformed perspective.”

Let’s be clear: I am a frothing Anti-Larsen type. I have never seen anything of worth in his work and his personality is grating. He’s the fanboy turned pro who can’t get over his fanboyness.

I could go on and on, but it’s a waste of time.

Erik Larsen is the reason I won’t ever buy an Image comic ever again. Ever.

Never.

Erik,

Your diaper needs changing.

Marvel would have to deny it in case Larson considers it a copyright violation and decided to sue them. Wacker is toting the company line.

Obama is even on the cover of American Dog Magazine

http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/01/obama-magazine-cover-of-week.html

While it’s been fun adding to all this pettiness, we may need Obama to bailout the comic industry at some point, so it is probably better to put him on every cover and every comic. He can be the new “Wolverine”..

Stop…please…just stop..move on…

This is beyond stupid. Both Erik and Marvel did it for one reason: Money. Erik may have done it first but who cares?

ElCoyote’s Prophet

You forgot to mention the third type of poster. One who acknowledges the little guy, gives credit where credit is due, with no political trunk. That being said, Marvel got their book out first. As Nixon once said after the Kennedy election, “They stole this election from me, fair and square.”

I applaud Marvel. They learned from the Captain America death fiasco, no advanced solicits. So, Wizard, who bought up a lot of copies during that event–and sold them for huge profits..could not take advantage this time. At least not in the same manner. Even to this troll, it is sad to see this Obama thing generate this amount of discussion from Editors and creators. Id rather have them post teases on new projects, bash an occasional troll, and give us a glimpse of the magic they create.

Marcel Perret-Gentil

January 18, 2009 at 8:44 am

I don’t know why the same comic creators always b**ch and moan about things. It’s the same guys like Larson, who I do read on occasion, that are always complaining about other companies or always mad at someone in the industry.

You people really need to get a life…!

what Bothers me I that Eric feals that he should complain about the SpiderMan Barack thing at all.
his idea was not to use Dragon was not to celebrate the Presedent it was to get him elected.

which was totally from a first introduction which Spiderman was. did I like what was done in Spider man no the story was extreamly short with all the excitment the story should have taken the whole issue with an explanation to why spiderman was at the white house and prop build up defently not worth 3.99
good day

PhillipAMoore wrote: “what Bothers me I that Eric feals that he should complain about the SpiderMan Barack thing at all. his idea was not to use Dragon was not to celebrate the Presedent it was to get him elected. which was totally from a first introduction which Spiderman was. did I like what was done in Spider man no the story was extreamly short with all the excitment the story should have taken the whole issue with an explanation to why spiderman was at the white house and prop build up defently not worth 3.99 good day”

Um…..what? Care to rephrase that in English?

Both of these guys needs to just walk away now, but I will say, bravo to Mark Waid. Sometimes a situation like this needs other pros to step in and mediate.

Way to go Erik! I’m 100% behind you…unfortunately getting Wacker, Quesada, or anyone at Marvel to admit anything except, “Everyone loves Amazing Spider-Man and it’s selling like hotcakes!” is an impossibility.

They’re trying to boost ASM’s sales…otherwise Obama could have appeared in any number of titles. They need some good word of mouth for a once great title that they ruined.

Don’t let them off the hook Mr. Larsen!

G.

Fifty-Seven State Steve

January 18, 2009 at 10:21 am

Erik, calm down. You should be overjoyed about this. Marvel is just taking a page from Obama’s book and redistributing the credit.

@Grantster

It’s one thing to be a BND-hater. It’s another thing to be a reality-avoider. In November, Obama gave an interview where he mentioned that he collected Spider-Man comics. What OTHER Marvel book were they going to guest star Obama in?

@Bendrix
“And he (and me too) believes that Marvel stole his idea of a) putting Obama on a cover b) a variant cover c) as a publicity stunt.”

Obama gave that interview in November. Marvel rushed the story in December so that it could be out in time before the inauguration in January. They added the story to a preexisting comic that already had a cover.

If you were in charge of Marvel and you read that a President-Elect as popular as Obama collected Spider-Man, wouldn’t you try to put out an Obama/Spider-Man comic? Doesn’t it make sense, in the middle of Obama-mania, when every magazine is putting him on the cover, that you’d put him on the cover too? If your issue of Spider-Man already had a cover, wouldn’t the new cover HAVE to be a variant?

This is all such a joke. But it is doing exactly what Erik Larsen wants. It’s finally getting people talking about Savage Dragon again.

PhillipAMoore wrote: “what Bothers me I that Eric feals that he should complain about the SpiderMan Barack thing at all. his idea was not to use Dragon was not to celebrate the Presedent it was to get him elected. which was totally from a first introduction which Spiderman was. did I like what was done in Spider man no the story was extreamly short with all the excitment the story should have taken the whole issue with an explanation to why spiderman was at the white house and prop build up defently not worth 3.99 good day”

This actually makes sense.
If you take LCD, that is.
And Phillip, it WAS just a BACKUP story, and as such, the pages available will be somewhat limited. But re-read the story again, and you will learn how and why Peter Parker (Spidey’s alter ego, AND also a journalist) is in Washington.
To be honest you, the premise of the story ought to have been clue enough…

To see the Marvel Yes-Men, some of the worst comic book “fans” on record, well renowened for thier ass-kissing and mindless appraisal of mediocrity, boast that this variant was a success, is sad, because much like the worthless Colbert team-up, it TOOK AWAY FROM THE CORE STORYLINE. It’s a slap in the face to the guy whose got the most page count for this particular ASM story (which pushes character relationships for the long-term with established long-running characters), and what he’s trying to say in the story (i.e, Peter would leave a drunk to be date-raped). That Marvel had a succesful campaign based on a few short pages of strip, something that is neither ongoing or beneficial to what’s occuring in ASM at the moment, doesnt help BND (not that it needs helping, it sucks)

At least back when Superman went toe-to-toe with Ali, it was the main brunt of the story. At least when Ronald Reagan made cameo apperances in a Transformers strip, it was the main brunt of the story. Obama’s story wasnt the main brunt of the issue. I can’t speak for Larsen’s Savage Dragon, but if Obama wasnt the main brunt of the story there either, then it shouldnt be the cover, because it cheats, it takes from these characters

Oh, and I have it on good record Marvel don’t browse CBR or Crawlspace…oh wait, they do…because there hypocrites, cowards, conceited bullies, and power-mad fanfiction writers who are convinced nothing past 1976 ever happened, which “conveiniantly” means “hey, we no computers then, so what we think is valid”

I don’t read Savage Dragon, but I go to CBR on a daily basis, and I never heard of the S.D. Obama cover until now. I guess it slipped by me somehow. (I also don’t buy Amazing Spider-Man anymore since the ret-con.) Frankly, I care what Steve Wacker has to say about as much as I care about what’s going on in Savage Dragon. Meaning less than not at all. I really enjoyed Larsen’s column while it was on here though, so I’d have to say I have a lot of respect for him because he clearly makes comics because he loves them, and he obviously makes Savage Dragon the way he wants it to be, and not the way he thinks other people want it to be. And that is COOL. That’s the way it should be.

The “Obama as a sales boost” device bugs the shit out of me though. I saw they just threw him on the cover of the new Youngblood. Yeah, better pick that up! Look, I’m a big Obama supporter, I’m really looking forward to seeing what good he can do for the country– but maybe it’s because I just see Obama as the next president, not the second coming of zombie Jesus, but I just could care less if he appeared in a stupid– and I will emphasize STUPID– comic book.

I’m going to make a generalization, maybe this is just me: Seeing a real-life celebrity (or politician) in a comic book is a slap in my face, every time. Every single time it’s been done, it’s been stupid. I’d make an exception for a story that involved the government and when the President was depicted he was drawn as the real current president, but as soon as he takes an active role in the story, it’s stupid. Really, really stupid. It was stupid in Ultimate X-Men with George Bush, it was stupid in WildCATS with Dan Quale, it was stupid in Avengers with David Letterman, etc etc etc. (At least Avengers was playing it for a gag, but it really wasn’t that funny.) Those are real people, they live in our real world. Comics do not represent the real world. Comics represent a world where you may wake up one day with laser eyes and super strength, and your most logical recourse is to put on spandex, name yourself “Super Mongoose” and go fight Stilt Man. I don’t want to see real people in that world, all they serve to do is give me a point of reference to see how goofy the subject matter is.

All that said though, if you’re a creator and it’s your book and you want to put Barack Obama in it, who am I to say you can’t? I’m just the reader, if me and my weird pet peeve gets me wrinkling my nose, I simply won’t buy the book, but at least I can respect a creator for doing what he wants to do. But as soon as you put that person on the COVER, and that issue becomes “This is the Spider-Man book with Obama in it!” then it’s clear that you’ve done it not to sell the book on the strength of it’s character or story, but on the gimmick. Hey, reality’s a bitch and you’ve gotta have sales to get money so you can keep making that book, but it’s certainly not something anyone should respect. It is NOT a revolutionary idea that bears taking credit for. It’s pandering, plain and simple. You can talk and dance around it as much as you want, but it’s a marketing choice, and I don’t give comic creators respect for great marketing, I give them respect for great comics.

Baz.

I commented on the original post that I had some sympathy for Larsen but not anymore. To be honest, it’s boring me to tears now. Can we just move on to the next “controversy” already?

Marvel better not do a Zombie Obama cover variant (and when I say “better not”, I mean “totally should”)!
I thought of that first!
http://pop-monkey.blogspot.com/2009/01/zombama-remix.html

I think I have read just about all the comments: the good and the bad. But, I kept thinking one thing – Isn’t Obama on pretty much every magazine cover this month / week?

I don’t mean to be snotty about this at all, but wouldn’t this be like Time being angry at Newsweek fo having him on this weeks cover?

“To see the Marvel Yes-Men, some of the worst comic book “fans” on record, well renowened for thier ass-kissing and mindless appraisal of mediocrity, boast that this variant was a success, is sad, because much like the worthless Colbert team-up, it TOOK AWAY FROM THE CORE STORYLINE.”
-David Blyth

BINGO! Reading these Yes Men quotes in the comments makes me sick. Baaaa Baaaa sheep

I’m telling you Get Savage Dragon vs The Amazing Spiderman on comic shelves soon, I will pre-order the issue the moment I see it in Previews.

Please keep in mind everyone, the comic industry are all one big family, everyone should be patting eachother on the back saying good job bud, The one reason I like Savage Dragon is because he does remind me of the Hulk, and I would LOVE to see Erik drawing Spiderman and Savage Dragon in the same book battling it out, just do it!

Steve Wacker & Erik Larsen, seriously stop the joking around, we all know you are both reading this, give the people what we want: SPIDERMAN VS SAVAGE DRAGON nuff said!

“Yes from looking at it. It does seem to be Mr Larsen is having a go at Marvel as an entity rather than any individual. (for a change. I know that’s bitchy but I’ve been at work since 6 this morning :-) ) Why Mr Wacker has interpreted it as a personal attack and responded in that way I have no idea. The two most logical conclusions are that a) he feels aggrieved and is acting as a spokesman for the Company. Not really his job I suppose,(or is it ?) but certainly within his rights to defend something he is involved with or b) Guilty Consiounce (can’t spell today) There may be and probably is a lot more not being said. If that makes any sense at all.”

I’d guess because of the accusation of plagiarism. That’s really the only legit gripe anyone involved in this mess has, and it seems like a pretty obvious reason for Wacker and Waid to come out swinging like this. Plagiarism is generally considered a very serious accusation in any kind of published media.

That said, Wacker and Waid could have been quite a bit clearer and more professional about it. Also, Hulk with a fin on his head.

Both comics are stupid. I voted Obama and I wouldn’t buy either of them. Both are shameless marketing ploys. Just write good Spider-man and Savage Dragon stories and leave the politics to the experts.

I have the utmost respect for Erik Larson as a comics creator, artist, obvious Kirby fan, publisher, and person.

or at least, I did until today.

This is embarrassing. I’m sorry I have to be witness to this dick fight.

This reminds me of that little spat that Erik Larsen and Peter David got into about 10 years back. As a result the letters columns in Savage Dragon was highly entertaining with Larsen’s rants.

This whole thing is childish all around at this point.

Has anyone bothered to mention that perhaps the reason behind the publicity of the Spider-Man/Obama issue because it’s Spider-Man?

Spider-Man is a pop culture icon, and it makes sense that him meeting President Obama would generate mainstream interest.

I enjoy Erik Larsen and the Savage Dragon, but even if Marvel hadn’t done this issue, the mainstream press coverage would of Savage Dragon/Obama would be minimal.

Only an issue of Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman featuring Obama would generate similar press coverage.

Oh, Erik. Hahahahaha.

I think Erik is used to being a big fish in a small pond. When your friends are Todd McFarlane, Rob Liefeld and the like, you’re not exactly surrounded by a braintrust of imaginative talent. Larsen, just by having a brain larger than a peanut, is probably the most intelligent of the group. And in this fish tank sized arena, Larsen is the only man with good ideas. But expand that pool to the comic book industry and writing talent as a whole, and Larsen’s talents as a writer are fairly workmanlike and marginal. Yet, Larsen is likely under the impression that the world of creative talent really is as small as his isolated little puddle.

Arthur Dayne
January 18, 2009 at 10:33 am
PhillipAMoore wrote: “what Bothers me I that Eric feals that he should complain about the SpiderMan Barack thing at all. his idea was not to use Dragon was not to celebrate the Presedent, it was to get him elected. which is totally different from a first introduction which the Spiderman story was. did I like what was done in Spider man no the story was extreamly short with all the excitment the story should have taken the whole issue with an explanation to why spiderman was at the white house and proper build up this was not worth 3.99
good day

Arthur Dayne wrote: This actually makes sense.
If you take LCD, that is. And Philip, it WAS just a BACKUP story, and as such, the pages available will be somewhat limited. But re-read the story again, and you will learn how and why Peter Parker (Spidey’s alter ego, AND also a journalist) is in Washington.
To be honest you, the premise of the story ought to have been clue enough…
————————————————————————————————————————————————–
PhilipAMoore wrote : I get what you are saying about this being a back up story I just think if you are going to advertise a story add something to it. I would love to have seen peter enjoying the inauguration more. we are told he had a run in with the vice president. It would have been cool too watch that as well. We are treated to a five minute episode when it would have been fun to see more. The story could have gotten Michelle involved let face it the idea of the first lady hitting a villain of the head with her purse is funny . look at The Marvels that would have been a better approach and worth the extra dollar. even a story about the bus ride would have been good

good day

Whoah wait…this issue of Savage Dragon needed to be reprinted? This ONE needed reprinting? That’s great! Seriously…an indy book that received a reprint. Kudos.

…but…am I wrong? Haven’t several issue of BND Spidey received reprints before the Obama issue?

Oh, and I love Spidey, but the Obama story? I had to look at the cover again because I thought I’d picked up an issue of Spidey Super Stories from the 70’s. However, I was rudely corrected by the out of place “cougars” reference on the cover.

Really, Peter…cougars? I thought Parker and his cast were now 20-somethings again…

Well, when hulk with a fin on his head comes to beat you for plagiarism, Peter, just throw boxes of your reprints at him. Might slow him down.

I used to really respect Larsen. He wasn’t my favorite artist or anything like that, but I really liked what he was doing and his enthusiasm. Heck, I even wanted to work at Image at one point.

However, I just learned too much about him. He and Marvel are just part of this pointless pushing of this politician that offered easy answers to difficult problems. He hasn’t been in a office and he’s being given praise for things he hasn’t accomplished for things that should be credited to people long dead. Not a qualified politician at that, but that’s besides the point that it’s just a cheap gimmick.

I wished I’d never heard Larsen talk about 9/11. He talked about how ‘people heard explosions’ and it seemed like a joke to him. This is why so much of the entertainment industry is lame now, it’s very two dimensional and it can make fun you, but won’t make fun of Mohammed and his scared cow. Larsen is just part of that.

I’m not saying Spider-man is a better book at all. It’s actually become one of the most terrible comic books of all time. THere’s no reason to read a book where your promised things (like say the biggest thing even to happen to the charcter) and not make a decent story out of it because the EIC wants the character unmarried.

My point is this, comic books can’t survive on gimmicks like putting this guy on the cover and givng his ‘fist shake’ on the inside. Wacker edits a terrible comic book and Larsen complains in a terrible way and I don’t think I’ll ever read either comic ever again.

What’s a Savage Dragon?

Seriously though. This is getting ridiculous. They are fighting over who pimped Obama first. Good to know they really care about what Obama stands for and not what a big paycheck he can bring (that’s sarcasm by the way). Larsen admits to using Obama for publicity to make money and then gets mad at Marvel for doing the same thing. (Actaully, I’m pretty sure that Larsen stole the idea from the calendars, t-shirts, action figures, and commemorative coins they were selling with Obama’s visage on them.) This just goes to show that Larsen and Marvel could give a crap about the real issues in the world. If I ever make a comic, I’m putting Martin Luther King Jr, Mother Teresa, John Lennon, Che Guevara, and Michael Jordan sitting around a camp fire singing an Elvis Presley song on the cover … not because they have done anything great, just to make some sweet, sweet coin. Don’t go stealing my ideas, guys.

This is why no one accepts comics as literature. Larsen and Wacker, you guys are about as intelligent as a box full of mayonnaise wrapped in duct tape. Not that anyone would accept Savage Dragon as literature anyways, but you’re killing it for the intelligent writers.

That Godland comic is busy raping the dead corpse of Jack Kirby, and Larsen has the balls to accuse someone else of plagiarism? Hilarious…

What a stupid and ridiculous bit of posturing this is on the part of both parties. How many magazine covers has Obama appeared on now? The idea of Obama on the cover of any one’s magazine or comic book cover is cliche and no one individual’s creative property. This is what’s wrong with creator owned comics today, they lack intelligent filters to save them from giving voice to their own stupidity.

Image and the morons still associated with the organization are still grousing over their fall from the ivory tower they believed would stand forever during their glory weeks during the eighties. Grow up Larsen and learn how to draw something other than fishboy.

Hey, people, we GET it. You don’t read Savage Dragon. Some of us still do, and the thought that the title isn’t fun or important to some of us anymore is insulting. Better yet — list all of the titles YOU collect so we can poke jabs at the ones with limited or cult following, or even on the brink of cancellation. Even if Erik IS an idiot, his readers don’t deserve the second-hand abuse.

That said, Erik ISN’T an idiot. He’s never claimed to have “created” Obama, or to have even been the first to use a President or famous person on the cover of a comic. He was the first to actively endorse a candidate, t to use that endorsement as an alternate cover to a comic, and he experienced the most press a person in his position could because of it. The obvious on-line avenues, CNN . . . If YOU had a forum for expression that experienced that kind of success, then a corporation mimicked the move and experienced just as much, even MORE success, you’d be pissed, too. It’s the danger of ART as BUSINESS. I’m not saying the specific phrasing of either argument is right, but the feeling of offense is.

It’s easy to dismiss if you’re an outside party, not reading the Dragon’s book or if you’re only creative expression is snide jabs on comment boards.

Incidentally, if green skin makes the Dragon a Hulk rip-off, then Daredevil is a Batman rip-off ‘cuz he has horns on his cowl. Heck, every superhero with a logo on his chest is a Superman rip-off — context or character development be damned.

all the arguing is doing is helping Marvel sell a book. in making a big deal about this Eric is trying to get people who wouldn’t touch Savage Dragon to pick up an issue. More power to him. As a republican I wouldn’t touch the Savage Dragon Obama story and it was probably a lot better then this issue of Spiderman. Now if it had Sarah Paylan who appeared in Savage Dragon that would be a different story in case people think I talking out of bias I am as willing to see were Obama will be going as the next guy

When I think Eric Larson I think about a comic shop owner I used to know he used to buy every title of Spiderman for over twenty years then Larson’s Secret Six Story came out and the comic shop owner swore he would never read another spiderman book as far as I know he never did

good day

As a fan of both Savage Dragon and Amazing Spider-Man I find this whole debate rather frustrating.

I can see Larsen’s point in that Marvel had seen the effect a variant cover featuring Obama had for Dragon. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that a comic featuring the most popular comic character in America and the president-elect would do great guns. Especially, when you consider President Obama has previously stated a liking of both Spidey and Conan. (Dark Horse we need a Conan/Obama cover! :) )

As much as I like Steve Wacker, I would find it incredulous to believe that Marvel’s marketing people did not monitor the success of Dragon/Obama. Surely, as with every large company Marvel would have media monitors.

I think that encapsulates Erik’s dissatisfaction with the comic in question. It was a MARKETING decision not a creative one. Mr.Wacker says as much in pointing out that the story had a 7-day turnaround. The fact that it appears in an one-issue tale and not part of a six-part crossover pretty much seals the deal.

Unfortunately, Marvel by sheer virtue of its domination of the industry and public recognition of Spidey will always be seen as the innovator here.

Personally, I’d love to see all the parties shake hands and just agree that the election of president Obama is a step in the right direction for the world. (We hope.)

As for the nitwits who’ve used this forum to slag off Dragon with comments like “I haven’t been popular since ’95” and pointing to sales charts as a reflection of quality, ponder this: do you consider “Star Wars:Episode One” of greater quality of any other “Star Wars” film besides the original?

Lastly, I hope those of you out there who’ve yet to experience “Savage Dragon” aren’t put off by Erik’s somewhat petulant displays on this issue. It really is a great read and unlike a lot of books out there incredibly unpredictable. (To be fair, since Steve Wacker has been editor “Amazing Spider-Man” has scaled heights it hasn’t been near since the eighties.)

Richard Renteria

January 18, 2009 at 11:01 pm

I just want to point out two things:

1 – If Eric Larsen is such an internet hound why did he claim not to know who Steve Wacker was. Surely he’s seen many a headline with his name, Brand New Day anyone, including on this very site.

2 – Quoting Eric “Stories of Presidents being replaced with evil duplicates or even robots aren’t unheard of …” so why is it plagarism when Marvel does it but not when Eric does it. Is that not the very definition of a hypocrite.

R-

I find it very hard to believe that the Marvel/ASM team would knowingly copy Larson’s story, therefore I’d have to side with Wacker on this one. Also, Marvel had to have a pretty strong idea that coverage of the story would take off due to the “Obama read Spider Man comics” media meme. Why would they plagiarize a story that is almost guaranteed to get national exposure? Larson’s accusations just does not make much sense to me. I can understand his being cheesed off, but making accusations based on conjecture is not very classy.

Finally, I think that doppelganger/president is a pretty obvious story choice to take for such a novelty tale as “Obama Meets…” (especially a five page bit o’whimsy), but I realize that that’s a pretty subjective opinion.

Y’know what this all comes down to?

Nobody in the mainstream cares about the Savage Dragon. It’s a good book, maybe a great book, but your mom (okay, except for probably Erik’s mom) doesn’t know who or what he is.

Spider-Man? Everybody knows. So it gets picked up in the mainstream media. So it “Matters” in the sense that it’s on television.

Erik walked away from the Big Two to form Image, and he’s done a phenomenal job for himself. But sometimes, there’s a downside to going indy. It means he’s working on a book that, even when it features the president-elect, doesn’t matter to the mainstream media or the world at large as much as Spider-Man.

We’re all clear that Erik didn’t invent the “fist-bump” or the likeness of Obama, right? So what does that leave to steal— the cover tie-in? That’s not a swipe, that’s an obvious cash-in, especially when the celebrity/public figure in question name-checks your character in interviews. Kudos to Marvel, good on them. Erik— you were there first, but nobody cared. Don’t blame Wacker for that. He didn’t create the situation whereby Spidey matters more to the MSM than the Dragon. He just benefits from it, because he works for Marvel. You don’t want to work for Marvel, so you take the good with the ban, hein?

When is the 4th printing of Savage Dragon #137 coming out?

Read Savage Dragon #1for free, the entire issue, not a bad read, and oddly enough, has a “race” theme in it.

I’ll rub Erik’s head any day!

is goddamn censored? if it is, that’s weak.

Doug Ramsey says he heard Erik Larsen talk about 9/11 … is this for real? If so when was this? I can’t see Erik joking about it.

who cares who has the idea first. Would it kill you Erik if you’re second? third? It doesn’t really matter.. Such a petty thing to be mad about.. tsk tsk

Here’s the link to read Savage Dragon #1 for free.

http://www.imagecomics.com/onlinecomics.php?start=20

So, is the root motivation to promote Obama or to inflate your own ego? It seems rather than helping Obama’s star shine there is too much desire to take personal credit. Obama was not my choice, but still I don’t think the man should be reduced to the silly antics of this tug of war.

At least Larsen came out and supported Obama BEFORE the election.

Erik Larsen the cosmic whiner of the century !!

Larsen needs to get over himself. This whole farcical situation has only succeeded in making him look foolish. I’m sure Marvel and the Spidey crew are crying all the way to the bank.

FMB – Larsen can do that, his book is his own. I think Marvel would’ve been rightly accused of favouritism and partsanship if it had put this book out *before* the election.

marvel is full of crap

Moorish – Marvel has no obligation towards neutrality. They chose to cash-in and tie Obama’s celebrity to their product only when it appeared profitable to do so. Erik, however, took a risk and wore his affiliation on his sleeve regardless of how he felt readers might react.

duckman wrote : Marvel is full of crap

PhilipAMoore wrote: please explain.

This is one of the silliest things I have ever read. Wacker never said the never saw CBR or Dragon, He was saying it was silly to assume that cause Larsen did it the idea was somehow off-limits, or that Marvel couldn’t have come up with the idea on their own. Also So Marvel did a Spidey Obama comic, I only briefly thought of the Dragon, and why isn’t Larsen complaining about Liefeld doing the same thing? I usually see where Mr. Larsen is coming from I love his column but this is one instance I couldn’t disagree with him more.

ElCoyote's Prophet

January 19, 2009 at 7:35 am

I think I’ve figured out the pathology behind Larsen’s Spider-Man obsession.

In the early 90s people were convinced that Image would be the Marvel of the 90s. That in the past 15 years they would ascend to have the same cultural importance as Marvel or DC. That people would know WHO Savage Dragon was, and Spawn.

But the fact is none of Image’s properties has reached that level of penetration, Erik’s just bitter the Savage Dragon isn’t as popular as Spider-Man. Nevermind that the character is so visually similar to a pre-existing icon(The Hulk) that whatever Larsen does with it, the Savage Dragon will always, ALWAYS be the Hulk with a FIN on his head.

So, yeah, if I was in Erik’s position, and admittedly it would have to be nicer than mine, being a prophet of a made up god pays zero, but I might be a little bitter too, since Wizard and the like had been stroking my ego for a decade and now I get one upped by a character 30 years older than my own.

It explains his obsessive need to knock Spider-Man now, he’s desperate to prove Spider-Man isn’t as important a character as his Savage Dragon is, because, y’know Savage Dragon endorsed Obama before he was elected and all that.

Except it only mattered to the handful of people who read Savage Dragon, it’s not nearly as significant as the fact that Obama has read Spider-Man comics in his life.

So, y’know, um, yeah, Larsen is kinda pathetic in this, but he seems unable to grasp why he needs to constantly speak about a character he has no reason to speak of (he worked on Spider-Man almost two decades ago, NO ONE CARES WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT SPIDER-MAN!) or see nefarious reasons behind this little stunt backup.

I hope this post can help him learn that he needs to shut the fark up.

I don’t think Dragon is Hulk with a fin, different builds, Dragon has a normal face, while Hulk’s is squarish with a big brow and hair. Being green isn’t enough to look like the Hulk. Hell by that logic Kermit the Frog looks like the Hulk.

Not really – Kermit isn’t a big green muscle-bound monster character.

Look guys, I only picked up the Youngblood cover. Liefeld is where its at. Sorry.

I think you’re ALL crazy!

Wiish everyone would just get back to making funny books. Like him or loathe him, Erik is opinionated, and SD is a breathe of fresh air.

KaraokeBoy, lighten up! No one here insulted or poked fun at Savage Dragon fans, and if you were offended by what people have been saying, then you have an extremely think skin and need to walk away and take a breath. People were reacting to Larsen’s insinuation that the Savage Dragon issue in question is one everyone would know about, as if his titles get a ton of exposure, when the actual truth is that they don’t, and it’s certainly understandable if someone didn’t know about it. People aren’t insulting those who like Savage Dragon, nor are they even saying Savage Drgaon sucks–they’re saying that Larsen needs to get over himself and realize he and his work are not nearly as high-profile as he thinks they are. So relax…not everything is directed at you.

PhilipMoore wrote: As a republican I wouldn’t touch the Savage Dragon Obama story and it was probably a lot better then this issue of Spiderman. Now if it had Sarah Paylan who appeared in Savage Dragon that would be a different story in case people think I talking out of bias I am as willing to see were Obama will be going as the next guy

NotPhilip writes: You’re kidding, right? That’s about as biased a statement as you could have made. You won’t touch an Obama story because you’re Republican, but you would read a Palin (not Paylan) story. How is that not biased? Seriously, dude…recognize a bias when you have one.

Why are they pissed???

Thanks to them, NOBODY noticed my Joe Biden issue of TSSTG!!!

FUCK!!!

well this should take off some of the heat on kirkman for his retarded rant.

NotPhillip: I believe “Paylan” is the name in the porno vids, which sums up any Republican interest in her.

You’d think after reading all this that everyone that is knocking Erik probably had a run-in with him at some point in their life or work for Marvel. Some of you guys are way to emotional, its as Erik dissed you or he’s your b!tch, Let Erik say what he wants to say, the feud is between him and Marvel! Bottom line is both comics are selling well at the moment (Savage Dragon #137 & #145 “Obama cover” according to pre-orders), which is a good thing for comics. I personally don’t care who thought of it first I bought them both and I’m waiting for more to come out, Both companies have my support, Obama all the way!

Freddie, I haven’t been offended by what folks are saying on here, and I really like the comments that take the time explore this issue and comics’ relevence in politics and pop culture, but the people that take the time to throw up “Who cares? Savage Dragon is Hulk with a fin and sucks anyway!” wastes everybody’s time, has nothing to do about the Obama issue (pun intended). Those comments are definitely up here, because I’ve read ‘em, and the reason I usually don’t throw two cents in here is the apparent need to say something snide behind the anonimity of the Internet. Even your comment, while good-natured, didn’t the need the “it isn’t about you” tag at the end, but it’s easy for you to say and is second-nature to the fanboy dialogue that goes on here. Some folks have said Dragon and/or Erik stink, other Dragon/Erik fans have jumped his offense very quickly, so it’s about ALL of us that engage in a conversation in a meaningful way!

Does any of this really matter? Obama will go on and Savage Dragon and Spider-Man will keep getting printed. Spider-Man will conitnue to outsell Savage Dragon. And Savage Dragon will continue to have great vocail fans who will defend it, Erik Larsen and his actions forever. There’s nothing anyone can do to change that. So argue all you want, Erik will get nothing to stop his complaints and Marvel conitnue to sell books.

Are you people serious? The Arizona Cardinals are going to be in the Super Bowl!

Get over it already.

“Seriously, Todd Nuack? Last time I checked he was “Marvel Adventures” material”

Hey, now. Leave him out of it. Nauck is a FANTASTIC artist that held long runs on multiple titles throughout his career.

Slam the guys bashing it out . . . but leave this talented guy alone.

I’m pretty sure Erik Larsen invented black people.

The funny thing is, what I’ve read of Obama’s interpretation in Thunderbolts (which has roughly ZERO publicity outside the comics world), is much better than his appearances in both Savage Dragon AND Amazing Spider-Man.

Seems to be a blatant misunderstanding on the nature of plagiarism from Mr Larsen

Larsen wanted to sell more comics by getting attention and it worked. Congrats! Joe Q must be proud.

Congratulations to all involved at keeping the comic book industry the most whiney, self absorbed, ever shrinking “community” of contemporary culture.

I bet Al Gore never thought when he invented the internet that he’d see this kinda stupid $%#!

Accusing some one of essentially plagiarizing should never be taking lightly and needed to be responded to. Although Larsen has downplayed it, what Larsen did was do mindless speculating without
I also check CBR and Newsarama and did not hear at all about the SD Obama appearance. Larsen also forgets that Obama beings a fan plays a huge part in the appearance. The timing was because of the inauguration, not to steal the lack of thunder SD had.
Also, Marvel has no indication that this is Obama’s first appearance in comic book. The well known IDW Presidential Material received sizable media coverage, so their would be know point claiming that.
Finally, it appears the nature of the Obama appearance is different as well. Larsen effectively endorsed Obama by his SD story. In Spider-man, Obama has a normal celebrity/politician appearance in a story. Obama did not appear until after the election. It would be irresponsible for Marvel to show favoritism toward a candidate during an election.
Also, Wacker’s statement “that he does not read Savage Dra” is not a slight against Larsen. His words later in the post: “None of this is meant as a knock on Erik’s considerable body of work and his creation Savage Dragon. I don’t read it, but I certainly recognize that it’s an incredible accomplishment to create something that lasts this long and to find a way to write and draw that many issues. You should all go read it”
Wacker was posting as his position as an editor. It is not an official statement by Marvel. Sure marvel has moniters of previews and websites, but Wacker himself probably does not do it himself, as he is busy being an editor.

Two grown men fighting over Obama. It’s a time … i tell you.

It’s amazing that Larsen is complaining about people stealing ideas when, as a friend pointed out, he’s having Savage Dragon meet golden age Dare-devil (the half red, half blue guy with the boomerangs) that Dynamite and Alex Ross have been telling stories with for about a year or so. Sure, those guys are in the public domain, but so is Obama.

“presidents have appeared on the covers of Marvel comics before but never on an incentive cover and never as a publicity stunt. ”

So Larsen admits this was a publicity stunt?

“presidents have appeared on the covers of Marvel comics before but never on an incentive cover and never as a publicity stunt. ”

So Larsen admits his comic was also a publicity stunt?

[...] Erik Larsen schreibt an seinen Wochenenden gerne E-Mails und lässt den Obama-Cover-Kampf über Robot 6 in die nächste Runde gehen: So — lemme get this straight — Steve Wacker from Marvel goes to [...]

Either way, it is a tug-of-war over who ate $h!t first. Although I guess it is noteworthy in that the Savage Dragon is possibly the only non-Union rep cop in the country to endorse the President, even if he is fictional. Also, didn’t Obama, in Marvel cannon, put Norman Osborne in charge of all registered heroes in the USA? Think Spider-man changed his opinion of the dude after that little maneuver?

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