"I'm just disgusted by the women on this thread."
"Amy, I'm ashamed of you."

That high-horse you're on, I suggest you dismount.

Amy, Jennifer, Jon. L and Jtwonderdog were having a *debate*. You seem not to be familiar with the concept of debating - I suggest you do some research. They are entitled to voice and defend their opinions, regardless of whether or not you approve or disagree. Frankly, it amuses me that you even consider yourself in a position to be ashamed of anyone.

IMO their debate was quite a good one, it's just a pity that Jon. L lost sight of what they were debating about and focussed instead on being pedantic (contrary to your opinion, Lucretia, that is not a very professional debating tactic). To Jon. L's credit though, his last few posts were back on track.

"I also am bothered by the apparent belief that people of a specific gender can write their own gender far better."

If you had, as you claimed, read the entire thread, you would be aware that that is NOT what was being argued. What Amy and Jennifer WERE arguing is that a women can provide a DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE to a women's role in a male-dominated industry.

Perhaps you should read things properly and in context before mounting your soapbox.

And for the record, Amy might not speak for you but she definitely does speak for a large percentage of women out there.

Anyway, what I originally wanted to say was: this seems to be a desperate attempt by Marvel to squeeze more money from readers... what doesn't make sense is that they could ensure a more impressive increase in income if they took the time to find out more about their target market…
Market Research: you’re doing it wrong.

I also am bothered by the apparent belief that people of a specific gender can write their own gender far better. Many men have told me I can write male characters perfectly well, and yet I am not a male. (At least last time I checked.) In fact, I find that I can be more comfortable writing a male character under some circumstances. Writing isn't even about the experiences a man or woman has faced, but rather the ability to place yourself in those shoes. Is it any harder to write a fantasy novel than a modern day one, simply because you don't face dragons day by day? From my own experience as a writer over many years, I would say no.

I'm just disgusted by the women in this thread. To demean someone's argument for being "male" (which you have been quoted on, and therefor denying will be pointless) is the sort of crude tricks that I feel we as a gender should be above. For years and years we endured our arguments being demeaned because we were women. We didn't know better. We were raised for cooking, cleaning, childbirth, etc. What did we know about the affairs of men? It's a poor metaphor, mostly due to the hour which I'm writing this, but it's effective nonetheless. If you can even slightly be compared to the above situation, you may feel in the right but understand you hold no respect with me.

Believe what you want, but understand that you do NOT have the backing of every female.

Say what you will, take my argument apart piece by piece, but I don't care. I probably won't even come back on this page to read this ever again. This is the first and only post you'll ever see, and it's for this statement:
Amy, I'm ashamed of you.

That's all.

I wish that some male writers would do the same.

Marvel Divas was quite possibly the worse comic I have read since the mid 90's. This was boring, and clearly not funny at all.

I bought it because I REALLY wanted to see Captain Marvel and Firestar kick some tail. I did not pick this up to read whining and about one of them getting.. well i won't spoil it in case someone wants to read it.. I was bored to tears reading it but stuck it through until the end. Then the ending sealede it as the worst comic I ever read.

My only hope was the paper it was printed on was recycled.

I read just about everything marvel. This was terrible.

hello! No, I don't mind the line by line breakdown thing; we all do it, and sometimes it's just necessary. I liked your post a lot, and you raised some great points (..even if it was HELLA LONG, haha).

this, particularly, was really interesting:

"I’d argue that discrimination occurs even when mediocrity is rejected in favor of mediocrity, because of the difficulties that one mediocrity has to face that the other one doesn’t. Women can’t move ahead in the comic book world unless they are exceptional. Many men get by with meager talent. The solution that Jon L. proposes that only the best be published, regarldess of gender (no quote, just what I’ve gathered from reading this thread. If what I said isn’t true, please feel free to correct how I’ve interpreted from your post). I personally don’t think it will be a fair playing field until women are able to be mediocre, to only be passable, and still remain in the field along with the mediocre men. As it stands, women must *prove* that they deserve to be in comics. Men are assumed to deserve to be in comics. That’s my problem."

A part of me agrees with that, and a part of me doesn't. I mean - I see your logic, totally. And it makes sense.

I just don't like tolerating mediocrity based on gender - you know? I'd rather have less women in comics who are excellent than more women in comics who are mediocre. That doesn't sound like gender equality to me. That sounds like laziness.

To be less discriminatory, Marvel shouldn't hire more women who are mediocre just because their male writers are mediocre too - Marvel should instead focus on hiring PEOPLE who are qualified writers/artists; they should focus on raising their standards across the whole board.

The world is competitive. As the economic liberals like to say, 'there's no such thing as a free lunch'. I feel like people in this thread have made up this hypothetical situation that they're saying is reality - that there are hundreds of amazingly talented female writers that have been overlooked for jobs (or just THIS job) in favour of less talented male writers'. But that ISN'T reality. I mean really...there are simply LESS GIRLS that like comic books than guys. That's just the way it is. less girls read comics. less women apply for jobs in comics than men. So, naturally, there are less women in the industry. Until somebody can give me proof showing that the industry regularly turns down talented female writers/artists, etc...I'm not willing to use gender as an excuse for mediocrity.

So, yeah. That's that point. But since I posted here a while ago, I've really seen the internet go up in a frenzy over this. I hope Marvel is paying attention. Again, my main point is - why do we need a comic book about superheroes who have been placed together simply because they all have uteri? Why do women necessarily have to have different experiences in comic books because they have breasts? The thing that's wrong with marvel divas is that it uses gender as a catch all net for these characters - they've taken the heroines we love and stripped them down to a level where they all connect; the problem is is that that level is 'gender' and not 'personality' or 'experiences' or 'character'....they're only giving us one side of these women, and that's not fair. They're characters in their own right, with powers and abilities that kick MAJOR ASS - but writing a great comic book about all that stuff is too hard, so they instead chose to talk about their hair and makeup and boys and how they all take baths together.

I wish they'd treat these characters like they were real people, taking into account all 360 degrees of them, instead of focusing on ONE aspect of their personalities, you know? They never do that with male superheroes, and THAT is discrimination.

but anyways, yeah! Great comment - it's great to have real, non petty debates about this stuff - just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you're necessarily polar opposites! And a different opinion is not always a personal attack, either, which is important to remember. These issues are spectrums, not points on either end of a line....the only way change happens is by talking about it!

-j

I do feel as though you guys wasted far too much of your energy fighting Jon (who is all for more women in comics and agrees that women are at a disadvantage in the industry. And it is an accepted feminist position to argue that women should not be treated any differently than men or ever be hired just because they are a woman). Just wanted to say I agree with Adriana about you guys just coming off all wrong and waaay too aggressive. Surely your time would have been better spent writing to Marvel and addressing your concerns with them? Jon L isn't the 'enemy' by any stretch of th imagination.

And sorry but I only read about 3/4 of this (it's hella long now!) and I know no one is really going to read this cause I found this way too late but there it is anyway =)

All they are doing is trying to boost the popularity of these characters, and make a quick buck at it. To do that they have to make it appeal to as many people as they can. For females it is more story, and plot drivin. For males it is pictures of sleek, sexy women.

But ultimately this will fail. Once a women gets tired of looking at the pictures that go along with the mediocre story they will be done with the comic line. On the same note once a man sees a picture of each character 2 maybe 3 times he is going to get bored, and begin to invest some time in learning the mediocre plot. Which will again end in the comics demise.

Women need
1. Life like characters, life like both physically, and in personallity.
2. Gripping storyline with a centered plot which shows how the characters grow as the plot progresses.
3. For number 2 to continue on and on and on even if it is ridiculously boring.

Men need
1. Fast, hard action which is ussually tied to sex and/or violence.
2. Gripping stoyline with a centered plot which shows the characters lives while doing one of the above acts
3. To be eventually included in the acts described in points 1, and 2.

That is why it will die. The storyline will eventually become so damn boring, and once men realize the sex is not involving themselves, and the action scenes will not top one another. So it will die like so much other garbage.

Firestar I only know about from Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends from back in the 70's. And Black-Cat I know from the Spider-Man cartoon in the 80'-90's. The other 2 characters I don't know at all.

It will have a half-life of half a month, then die very slowly.

I think the key issue many posters might have with your position in your most recent post comes down to this:
"Men and women have equal opportunities."

If I've understood your argument correctly from there, you go on from there talking about how women are not literally prevented from making or reading comic books, so any lack of involvement in comic books must be due to choice and preference rather than any inherent sexism. Since there are no laws or industry rules or any other requirements that bar women from comics, then comics and the industry are imbalanced but not unfair.

What Amy and a number of posters have pointed out (and have put much more eloquently than I am) is that built into the comic book industry are advantages given to men that aren't to women. Granted, these aren't rules, and are mostly unspoken guidelines. But they do exist. Like most media, who you know matters more than what you know. Men have had and continued to have greater access to those business connections, leg-ups, and so on in the comic book industry. I hate to say this without a source to cite, but I feel pretty confident saying that this has been the case since the start of the comic book industry. For a women in a male-dominated field, even with the same skills, chances are the network she has to draw on is smaller. Therefore she has fewer opportunities presented to her, less mentorship, and less chances of broadening her network further.

Granted, one can go the self-publishing route. Then, like you said, " Any girl could go and become a comic book artist/author if she WANTED to." And many independent female comic book artists do go this route. But it is not easy. Production costs, publicity, business management, things that a place like Marvel or DC can easily handle without the involvement of the artist, must be shouldered by the artist herself. And that's a lot more time, work, and capital to invest for the artist that the artist might not have. Plus independent comic book artists aren't just women, so besides being less able to get ahead in big comic book businesses, they also have to compete with other independents of both genders.

"‘Sexist’ and ‘Male dominated’ are two different terms that are often used to mean the same thing, when really, they aren’t at all." You make a good point. These terms are different. But often a male-dominated field can be sexist. As myself and others have tried to point out, the male-dominant aspect of the comic book industry does contribute to sexist standards. Besides business relations, women also face challenges of being taken seriously, as diane has posted.

Essentially, it's a chicken-or-the-egg situation. We know men read more comic books than women statistically. Do men just like comics more? Or does the content of comics cater to men, thus making it less likely for women to find comics they enjoy? Added to this is the fact that most popular comic book writers are men, making it harder to find a woman's voice in comics.

"Stereotypes exist for a reason - because a lot of women are that way!" But that's not the only or even the primary reason many stereotypes exist. Stereotypes are often created and used to lock people into certain roles, denigrate them, and deal with a diverse group as a single entity. Even if you fit the stereotype. Even if everyone you know fits the stereotype. It still does a disservice to the created group to enforce the stereotype in portrayals of the group. Think of a negative stereotype of any racial group. Even if you know people of that racial group who act that way, it is still unfair to characterize everyone in that group in that way. That's why in media depictions of a particular group, it's particularly important not to just fall into stereotypes. So when a project like this wants to portray a female perspective, it's worrisome that stereotypes that do a disservice to women would be used.

I'm not going to argue about which sex has preferences for violence or romance or action or talking. Many people of both genders cross traditionally understood truisms about what each gender prefers. I also hate being reduced to my body chemistry- regardless of the amount of testosterone or estrogen I have (and everyone has both! Just in different proportions), I have a wealth of experiences and rationality that go beyond my body. I'll assume that most people are more than the sum of their chemicals as well.

" Comic books would be sexist if they regularly turned down skilled female authors/writers in favor of less talented male writers/artists. But we don’t know that they do that."
First of all, many people would argue that this does happen. Secondly, your point seems to be that that discrimination would only take place if talent was rejected in favor of mediocrity. I'd argue that discrimination occurs even when mediocrity is rejected in favor of mediocrity, because of the difficulties that one mediocrity has to face that the other one doesn't. Women can't move ahead in the comic book world unless they are exceptional. Many men get by with meager talent. The solution that Jon L. proposes that only the best be published, regarldess of gender (no quote, just what I've gathered from reading this thread. If what I said isn't true, please feel free to correct how I've interpreted from your post). I personally don't think it will be a fair playing field until women are able to be mediocre, to only be passable, and still remain in the field along with the mediocre men. As it stands, women must *prove* that they deserve to be in comics. Men are assumed to deserve to be in comics. That's my problem.

Long post is too long. orz