Robot 6

Dan Slott responds to message-board insult with well-deserved f-bomb

Every Spider-Man fan knows that with great power comes great responsibility. I don’t know if the ability to make your voice heard on a message board counts as “great power,” but surely there’s some responsibility attached to that, too. A recent run-in between Amazing Spider-Man writer Dan Slott and a CBR message-board user named lejayjay serves as an object lesson on this point, and who you think abused their power-responsibility balance the worst may well reveal a lot about you as a fan and consumer of comics and art.

In a thread called “How long do you expect Dan Slott to be the lead/ sole writer of Amazing Spider-Man?”, lejayjay posted a comment seemingly deriding Slott as a fair-weather comics writer who would likely depart for a more lucrative field. Though the comment eventually spun off into facetiously hyperbolic territory, it began by directly attacking Slott’s motives for writing ASM at all:

It is jus a paycheck for Slott anyway. He’s not a real fan.

Those two sentences prompted the following response from Slott, who expressed his displeasure in no uncertain terms:

As a guy who turned down a side job this year for a paycheck that would’ve been over a third of his yearly income– BECAUSE it would’ve meant cutting back on his not-so-lucrative comic book writing career– and get in the way of working on his Spider-Man dream job…

…and the guy who slept less than 12 hours over the course of 4 days this week working on a script while he was sick… a guy who finally had to be ORDERED off it by his editor to go see a doctor… and is still in a good deal of pain today…

…this is the first time I think I’ve ever said this to somebody over a comic book message board:

Go fuck yourself.

Seriously.

Go. Fuck. Yourself.

lejayjay apologized almost immediately, wishing Slott well and characterizing the initial post as “schtick.” But the exchange still strikes me as a revealing one, for several reasons.

First, it shows — as if there were any question at all — that even some of the biggest names in comics, well paid by massive entertainment corporations for writing the superhero genre’s most popular characters, read and take very seriously the anonymous and semi-anonymous criticism and insults of people on the Internet. Whether that’s good, bad or indifferent for the creators, the companies, the comics or the consumers is up for debate, but it’s a very real phenomenon.

Second, it shows the folly of ascribing specific, and in fact unknowable, motives to creators whose work you dislike when a direct critique of that work itself would more than suffice. If you feel that (say) Dan Slott’s Spider-Man work lacks heart or is poorly told or runs counter to what you value in Spider-Man comics, there are countless ways to address this by discussing the actual work — pointing out specific shortcomings in plotting or dialogue or characterization; comparing it to other, better work by different creators; even comparing it to past, stronger work from the creator in question — rather than concocting theories about their personal feelings toward the characters or how they’re only in it for a paycheck or whatever. You don’t know that; unless they come out and say it, you can’t know it. Acting as if you do wastes everyone’s time.

Third, it shows that large segments of fandom expect creators to follow rules of decorum they in no way apply to themselves. Both in the original thread and on other sites where the exchange has been brought up, like this post and comment thread at Spider-Man Crawlspace or this question on Tom Brevoort’s formspring account, many fans responded to the exchange not by getting upset at the original, insulting post (joke though it turned out to have been) and empathizing with Slott as a person whose integrity and creativity had been questioned, but by getting miffed at Slott for forcefully responding. Wanna insult a person who works in the arts by saying the most derogatory and baseless things you can? Go ahead! Work in the arts and want to respond by cussing the insult-thrower out? Why, that’s no way for a grown-up and professional to behave! Break out the fainting couch, I’ve got the vapors! HOW DARE YOU, SIR!

Again, we can question the wisdom of popular professional creators engaging with message-board and comment-thread name-calling, but to act as though one side of the exchange can do basically whatever they want while the recipient of the abuse should never respond in kind is an absurd double standard. Moreover it evinces a profound sense of entitlement: a demand to be able to treat others however poorly you want while reserving total immunity for yourself, and a reduction of the artist to a glorified conveyor belt that must silently transport your preferred art-product to you and to whom you have no behavioral or ethical or moral obligations. It’s the same mindset that leads readers to insult creators who express contrary opinions about how their work is made available digitally, or attack people with legal and moral claims to the proceeds from a certain work if those claims are deemed to provide even the slightest impediment to the way those readers are accustomed to consuming that work. For better or worse, we the readers really do have some power thanks to the Internet. And you know what they say about power.

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Comments

279 Comments

The Coolest Dad (tm)

December 9, 2010 at 2:13 pm

Good for Slott. That kind of comment is completely uncalled for and he is 100% justified. It amazes me what people will say online but would never say to a person’s face.

Dan Slott, if you’re reading this… could you please make the character of Big Time, from the comic strip incarnation of Spider-Man, into a regular character … especially now we have officially entered the Big Time era of Spider-Man?

Seriously, fans of the comic strip version love him. Mainly because it gets that Peter Gabriel song in our heads.

I disagree. Slott should be above that kind of language. He’s a professional writer and could have expressed himself just fine without using the f word. No need to drop to the same level as an unpaid fan. I understand and respect his frustration with the situation — I’ve had those exact same feelings and have even posted terrible responses to fans before — but he should refrain from cussing fans online.

But this does show how small the world is when a comic author interacts with a fan in this way.

I find it very easy to imagine the frustration that Dan Slott must’ve felt reading that post, so I can understand why he would respond like that. Good for him, I say!

Also, what you wrote at the beginning of the last paragraph is very interesting. In my opinion, comics creators shouldn’t even bother checking message boards, for their sanity’s sake. Ignorance is bliss, in this case.

Well, comic fans are pathetic really. They think they are entitled to everything. Most of them think they can out-write and out-draw hard working professionals when the truth is they couldn’t thing 2 sentences together on paper. Cowards, is what they are.

Great post Sean.

Any sort of backlash against this only supports my theory of the constant cycle of pussification of comic readers/nerds in general. Get over it, don’t be a cry baby, read comics. If someone wants to call a motherfucker a motherfucker, more power to them, regardless of who’s saying it and who’s having it said to them.

The dude on the linked formspring is ridiculous. I’ve seen people working for DC talk just as much shit online. The fact that readers actually think the publishing company somehow matters when it comes to who says and does what is ridiculous, just like the constant Marvel vs DC bickering between whiny nerds that really all need to get told to go fuck themselves.

Hear! Hear! Good for Dan. “Schtick” or not, making assumptions about someone’s motives is idiotic.

Ok i read what the idiot wrote, and while Slott could have been the better man and not have said anything (or even better language) the guy had it coming badly. Speaking for everyone, making wild accusations and accusing Slott for being a fair-weather fan of Spidey. No logical thought went into his post…but you can say that for most people who succumb to nerd rage on the Internetz.

I’m on Slott’s side in this. Sure, he could have came up with a more flowery sentence to express himself, but sometimes you just have to be blunt with people. I actually doubt the original post was intended fecetiously, but of course, once called out the fan backpedaled. He never thought the person the comments were aimed at would actually read them. Readers/fans love to abuse their power on message boards, berating writers and artists for every little thing with imbecilic blanket statements that offer no constrictive criticism whatsoever. Sometimes they need to be reminded of their responsibility.

And I’m definitely getting a Dan Slott book next time I’m at the comic shop :) Loved his SheHulk, glad he spoke his mind- fans need timeouts once in awhile. It’s become pretty crazy out there.

First of all, I admit that it is very easy to get into heated debates and say stupid things on a message board that, after calming down, you really wish you could take back. I’ve certainly been guilty of this and have to remind myself constantly that what I say reflects upon the impression others would have of me. What the original commentator to Dan Slott said was ridiculous and short sighted, and I’m certainly NOT suggesting Dan Slott shouldn’t have responded back to set the guy straight. However, like it or not, Dan Slott is a professional writer who, even though he’s freelance for Marvel, also represents them. So whatever he says not only is potentially reflective of him, but also of the company he works for. While you certainly this op-ed makes a good point about fans expecting creators to behave in ways they themselves do not, it still doesn’t mean that two wrongs make a right.

Also, for your consideration, here’s what Dan Slott himself had to say about debating with fans about three years ago over on another blog:

“…I’m really happy to say that “online” run-ins with posters…are pretty few and far in between. The problem is, a lot of times, when you defend yourself against these kinds of posts—you validate them AND you come off as a “bully.” I mean, here you are, someone who’s lucky enough to be working in the industry, and you’re picking on a “fan”. And, believe it or not, I’m starting to get that. It’s just so weird to me—because in my heart, I’m a fan too. And I want to mouth off like a fan—stand up to trolls—point out when people are saying things that just-aren’t-true. Being on a niche book like SHE-HULK, I kinda had a LITTLE bit of freedom to do that.

“But as more of my work gets out there, and more people get to know my name, I gotta be careful about that. It’s taking me a while, but it’s starting to sink in. I just don’t want that to get in the way of being able to chat with people on line. Or blabbing about things over at my Jinxworld board. I care about this industry, these characters, AND the fans. And as the higher profile gigs start coming, I guess what I have to realize is that “fans” includes ALL fans—not just the good ones (of whom there are many, many, many, oh so many!)—but also the trolls and the worst of the worst too. No matter what, the trolls are still people that are supporting the industry. And HOWEVER they express themselves, comport themselves, or try to outright **** with you, they’re entitled to their opinions too. I get it. I guess from here out, part of my job IS to be that guard at Buckingham Palace. To sit and take it no matter what gets slung my way. And to be damn happy about it too—because this IS one heck of a job!”

http://www.superheroeen.com/2007/05/slott-note-to-online-comic-reviewers.html

I love Dan Slott. Ever since his run on She-Hulk.

That aside, I am constantly awed and thankful for the creator participation in the community. They respond to our questions on message boards. They retweet reviews and participate in ongoing dialogue with websites that get little traffic.

None of us would be here without that level of commitment, and it’s because of that (kindness and vitrol) that we HAVE such an active fandom.

By the way, anyone who says Slott should be “above” such language – Fuck obviously has a place in English (and in comics.)

The day superman drops the f-bomb is the day we know something big is going down.

Similarly for a creator – if they really get this pissed, obviously a nerve is struck. I’m cool w’ it.

Great post, Sean.

Dude – anybody who’s ever actually READ any of Dan Slott’s work can tell it’s anything but just a paycheck. You can tell how much he loves doing this job. He knows his shit, and he writes comics that are hella fun to read. I hope he does at least a 45-issue run on Amazing.

Anyone who produces a product for mass consumption is open to be a target for ridicule. weather that’s you writing this blog or slott writing spiderman. Slott is kept to higher level on conduct about message boards because his job is selling comics to the people who write on message boards. If the owner of Purina told a mean lady with 6 cats that she doesn’t really understand cats then pet people would be mad at Purina not the lady even if she is mean. You can never insult your customers period, they can always insult you because they give you money. that’s capitalism, that’s America.

@stillanerd (how apt)

Good job following comic writers around message boards and reporting everything they say. Do you have a normal life? sheesh

you tell em stillanerd

@comicfan

I insult my clients all the time.

If someone steps outta line, you straighten em up. I don’t care what walk of life it is. Shut up and take it is not how we do things in New York City. I know its tough to realize this but people aren’t just gonna take your crap. You cross the line once too often you wind up someones bi#ch.

JOHN BYRNE WOULD NEVER LET THIS STAND IF IT HAPPENED TO HIM!

@ratpack

oh please your gonna talk big because you own a store downstate and are rude. your so full of it, how many leans you got against your store. I from syracuse, where we still have money

GO ORANGE!!

@comicfan

If you think I’m being rude you need to toughen up.

And who said anything about owning a store? Reading comprehension is essential son. You don’t need to own a store to have “clients”.

I get what you’re saying, comicfan, but I ultimately can’t agree. If a customer comes into my shop and complains about the shop itself, some issue with the quality of what she bought or the availability of something she’s looking for, then no, it’s not my place to insult her for her views, as I’m representing the shop by working there and accepting grievances customers have with the shop is part of the job.

But if that customer doesn’t stick to attacking the shop, and instead starts attacking me, if she says I’m a scumbag, that I’m a piece of crap, whatever – especially if she’s saying it for no reason, knowing nothing about me other than I’m not giving her what she wants – I’m going to defend myself and tell them that they’re out of line, regardless of the demands of decorum. Being a good ambassador for your employer is one thing, but having a backbone and some self-respect is another.

So I don’t blame Dan Slott in the slightest for his response. In fact, I salute him. To me, it seems like the message board equivalent of some smart-ass talking smack about another guy at a party, only for him to belatedly realise said guy is standing behind them, and then the guy calls the smart-ass out for saying stuff he wouldn’t dream of saying if he thought the guy was around to hear it.

But ultimately, I think Mark Waid is right when he calls the internet “the zone-o-phone” – the window into the Phantom Zone that Superman periodically looks into to get pelted with torrents of abuse.

I wish to God the Internet age could have happened when the 1950s-1960s DC Editorial team was in its prime, just to watch them roaming around sites crushing people.

i agree with adam kirby and think if more people were to “call a motherfucker a motherfucker” the world would be a much better place. especially when people talk shit about you only because they can hide behind the anonymity that the internet provides. in short; act like a dick then be prepared for someone to call you on it.

“You can never insult your customers period, they can always insult you because they give you money. that’s capitalism, that’s America”

My America was built on a foundation of people telling off douchebags. It was called the Boston Tea Party. Declaration of Independence. Revolutionary War. War of 1812. Significant chunks of World War II. The fourth Star War.

I was gonna write Dan Slott wins on this one (and I still love Slott’s situational response on this one), but I gotta say–in terms of Robot6 comments: Spurgeon wins!

I actually think the guy MAY HAVE genuinely been “schticking” like he said. He ends the post saying “Yes I am laying it on heavy,” and there’s no indication in the post that the guy went back and edited it after the fact (I think most message boards have a function that automatically shows whether or not someone edited their post). But I may be wrong.

However, I don’t blame Slott for his reaction and frankly as far as judging his behavior, I’d say it’s between Slott and the poster. None of my business, really.

>> He’s a professional writer and could have expressed himself just fine without using the f word. No need to drop to the same level as an unpaid fan. >>

Dan wasn’t paid for that post either.

Presumably, the fan gets paid for doing his job, if he has one, but neither one of them have a job posting on the web, so they’re at the same level already, they’re. They’re both amateur message boarders, posting in their spare time.

The difference is, whether seriously or not, the first poster was outright lying about Dan. I’d say Dan was absolutely justified.

kdb

Anyone remember how to turn the other cheek?

Or is it called taking the high road?

Telling someone to “F” themselves is wrong…PERIOD.

Not sure why so many people are jumping on the Slott-bandwagon for what amounts to poor social manners (retaliation or not).

I suddenly understand why so many kids just run around with no respect and tell people to “F” themselves…because in situations like this people go, “Good show!’ “He totally had every right to do that!”

NO. NO. NO.

I can understand where Slott was coming from. It sounded like he was having the week from Hell, and I honestly can’t blame him for just snapping. I’ve done it. I’m sure a lot of other people have done it. It would be hypocritical for me blast Slott for an all-too human reaction. Everyone has that point where they just lose it, professional or not.

Dan Slott had ever right to. Criticizing one’s work is fine, but insulting an author is disrespectful. That is not professional and ANYBODY who has read Slott’s twitter know he is beyond passionate about this industry. Rude and false, I think Slott went easy. I would have done a paragraph of well written insults with tons of profanity. Sorry, but he did go easy. He should of used F**** more times. The poster deserves no respect a tall.

@Barrel Jumper

Have you tried crying about it on the internet yet? I hear that works.

It takes Dan Slott that long to write an issue? Seriously???? But, I kid, I’ve met Slott, he’s a really nice guy.

But, seriously, people on respond to criticism that they think has potential merit. Otherwise, you are responding to criticism with no backing (i.e. trolling) or criticism for the sake of criticism (I don’t care for the work, so let’s make the most malicious criticism possible). Also, if you’re so sick, why are you lurking on a message board and not getting some sleep? Slott obviously wanted some attention, so he dropped the f-bomb and made a big deal out of it.

If you’re sayig it was not adult of the poster, how adult is telling someone “to go fuck yourself?” It’s not even witty or clever response and sort of makes you seem like a baby too…

Everybody in this thread can go fuck themselves.

Hahahaha! That’s probably the sort of post we should delete, but I’m too tickled by it.

I want to thank pretty much everyone in this thread, in fact, for discussing this so respectfully.

In general I think it’s best for creators to avoid engaging with critics or fans on the Internet if there’s an especially personal or negative tone to the exchange (Like, if someone started tweeting about Dan Slott’s mother and the fact that she may have worn army boots, it would probably behoove Dan Slott to tweet back, “No YOUR mother wore army boots. And was also a prostitute.”)

However, if the person making the criticism–or shtickicism…or whatever all that was–without the conviction to put their name to their opinions, then yeah, go ahead and tell them to Forget off (um, to use C-Lo’s stand-in for “the f word”). Using an Internet handle is fine I guess, but if you’re using it to hide form your own opinions, then sure, Forget you.

What strikes me as weird about that initial comment is–forgetting about Slott and Spider-Man and just looking at a formulation offered in it–is that the test of a good writer for this annonymous person here is apparently someone being a true fan, rather than a professional taking a job for a paycheck.

I’d much, much, much rather a talented, mercenary writer write a character I like (even if they hate that character personally) than someone who’s main qualification for the job is that they are that character’s biggest fan, you know?

Maybe the ideal writer is also a fan–you’d have to be a fan to write pretty much ANY superhero at this point wouldn’t you? Even best-sellers like Batman or whoever aren’t going to bring you that much dough in royalties these days, but can you imagine if publishers made decisions based solely on that?

“Well, Dan Slott’s pretty great and all, but I found this one dude on the Internet who’s an even bigger fan than Slott—he legally changed his name to Peter Parker and had Spider-Man’s costume tatooed all over his body–so I think HE should get the gig instead.”

Whether the fan was right or wrong / Dan Slott is right or wrong, the exchange between them is one of the contributing factors as to why this industry has such a difficult time gaining new readers and keeping the old ones.

Now, you are all welcome to pile on me too.

To all readers: We’re just pathetic comic fans, nothings really. Just cowards. Thanks Johnny Five for reminding us. But since obviously, you’re not a comic fan, remind us of why you’re here.

To all pros: I know, I know.

Fuck off. Fuck Me. Who do I think I am? And any other insult you as a pro feel entitled to sling my way. Whiner, cry baby. Asshole. Idiot.

Still, I like option #1.

Fuck off.

So I will.

If this becomes a slogan on a t-shirt at the next major comic-con, then Dan Slott should get a percentage of the profits.

I think it was Brian Bendis who compared comic book fans to baseball fans. They may criticize the team, but they will continue to follow them no matter what happens.

Some have strong opinions about the character, the writers, the artists… but they should be civil and reasonable.

I’m not a big fan of Spider-Man right now, but I did enjoy his run on She-Hulk.

As for Slott’s response… he laid out his reasoning, then used an effective phrase to make his point. I don’t recommend he make a habit of this, but I understand his point of view.

The original post is silly – comics would be better off if they played less to the “real fans” – and Slott’s list of martyrdoms in response is equally silly.

I meet Dan Slott at the Toronto Fan Expo a couple of years back. He came across as a hell of a nice guy and actually said a few words instead of just the typical “give comic, have it signed, move on”. He was a nice guy. Plus, didn’t he work his way up the ranks at Marvel, finally getting a writing gig? That’s dedication right there.

We participate in a medium where we DO have access to the writers and artists of books that we love. Is it a pay check for them? Obviously, but for most, I think it IS more than that. They don’t have to “talk” to us like they do. Heck, I wrote to Stephen Wacker, complaining about OMD/BND and you know what, the guy sent me an email back, asking if I stuck around, etc. He didn’t have to do that, but he did. Why some feel the need to ‘sound off’ behind the safety of a message board is beyond me.

I have been a vocal opponent of OMD/BND/OMIT and at no time did I question or criticize the person(s) but rather the choices and direction and had actual reasoning behind it. Criticizing the work is acceptable. Insulting the person is not. As a “polite’ Canadian, I think Mr. Slott was totally justified. Good show.

Sometimes the best thing is to just walk away.

Since we’re all whiny babies anyway, something the industry never lets us forget, maybe we should do like a lot of other people are doing.

Just keep our mouths closed and walk away.

Mr. Adair,

Brian Michael Bendis is wrong. Comic fans are not like baseball fans. Baseball fans will keep coming back to support the team but as time is demonstrating, many comic fans will not. Some of them just walk away without saying a word.

People on the internet anger me every day. But seriously, you gotta brush your shoulder off, Dan. Get. That. Dirt off your shoulder.

You start fighting with the filth, you’ll only get filthy.

Loving all the people who think “professional decorum” is the same as “taking shit from anyone and everyone”. I haven’t seen a writer in YEARS with as much love for Spider-Man as Dan Slott. He has every right to put the little creep in his place.

You guys are thinking with your emotions. I do too, I’m highly temperamental. But I am still against fighting with fans. Sorry a fan doesn’t know each professional’s circumstance. Not his duty to! Fans are there to read comics, writers are there to write then. I’ve been in a million internet slapfights and not one of them makes you more of a man. Ever. Sure, it can be cathartic to tell that jerk off, but after that, then what? It seriously gains nothing.

I mean, we all shoot the breeze about art and entertainment and who’s messing up a franchise and who’s going to win the playoffs and what movie is going to flop. You know what though? Haters gon’ hate. They don’t like you, all you can do is win them over. You can’t bully your way into respect. You can only yell, guilt and bully your way into pity and fear. Stand tall, stand proud, comics professionals. “Must be strong in mind and spirit, when idiots talk in fear of your shit, brush it off when you hear it, never fear it.”

I have no horse in the race, I don’t even read Spider-Man.

Whatever: man fires back at message board critic. Film at eleven.

“Sure, it can be cathartic to tell that jerk off, but after that, then what? It seriously gains nothing.”

He apologized after Slott told him off. He probably won’t say something like that again in the future.

I fail to see how intimidating nerds into towing the company line counts as a “win.” How does that make people like Slott as a Spider Man writer more? The fan still doesn’t like the direction of the series. Only difference now is he’s afraid to say it.

Message boards are fan spaces. This is what boards are FOR.

I don’t appreciate the subtle bullying aspect of it, I don’t register the compulsory, forced respect that comes with the wolf strolling into the henhouse.

I’m sure he’s a nice guy but he apparently isn’t entertaining some Spider Man fans.

“Bullying”? There was no bullying, subtle or otherwise. Someone said something douchy, rude and inaccurate and the TARGET OF THE DOUCHY, RUDE, INACCURATE STATEMENT told that guy to shove it. To paraphrase Neil Gaiman, Dan Slott isn’t your bitch. If he feels offended by a legitimately offensive statement, and obviously he did, it’s not bullying to tell the guy off and set the record straight. There’s expressing your displeasure at the direction of a series, which is not what this guy did, and there’s insulting someone personally and calling their integrity into question, which IS what this guy did.

He feels afraid to be a rude dick? Good. He SHOULD feel afraid to be a rude dick.

P.S. Darryl, I like your comics. It’s too bad you’re just doing them for a paycheck :P

Thanks Chris. Your dollars are keeping me warm this bitter winter.

But on the topic of “bullying”: I think that with regards to the context of comic book message boards, creators are basically a higher social class. To descend into the realm of those of a lower class and address their complaints individually does two things: it intimidates the lower-status nerds and it lowers the creator (ie, the higher status nerd).

I’m just saying that the dude who essentially controls the thing that the Spider-fan loves is too big to be boxing with him. I’ve been on message boards of varying kinds for ten years. Fans are horrible. HORRIBLE! But they’re just shooting the breeze amongst themselves about their concerns with the thing that they like.

Also, having read the entire exchange in full (rather than the bites in the news post above), it’s so ridiculous that Slott could make THAT post the breaking point. The Spider-fan had him having “multipositioned sex with supermodels,” that’s kind of charming, compared to what serious trolls say on a kind day. I mean, when you consider the amount of trash that fans talk about Bendis, dang. I mean, Slott should have thanked the guy for the compliments.

I know it’s wrong of me to tell another person what to be offended by. I’m just honestly baffled by anyone thinking that this tame insult is worth breaking out the good brass knuckles over.

What a tempest in a tea cup.

4 things:

1) This was NOT me attacking someone who was disagreeing with me– or criticizing my work. So, no points to anyone trying to argue that, because that’s NOT what happened. Please find a new cause of the day. This was someone taking a shot at me as a person– assigning motivations to me that I don’t have– painting a picture of me that was insulting and wholly untrue– in a PUBLIC forum where I was a member and regularly post.

2) This was something I said after four days with very little sleep– while very sick– in a great deal of discomfort– stressed out over work– and after a bad day at the doctor’s office. I was NOT at my best– didn’t really have any of my “A” game for a quick, witty response– but I still stand by what I was feeling– and don’t regret ANY of the “vulgarity” in what I said. I regret the clumsy preamble tho– cutting straight to the GFY would’ve been much better. :) (And for the guy who thinks I got over some kinda phony sickness because– WOW– I’m still able to type on a keyboard… Please post your snail mail address– and I’ll be more than glad to ship you tissues filled with blood and mucus. I seem to have an inexhaustible supply.) :-[

3) So far– in my history of internet discourse– this has been a GFY one-timer. Have I been rude again? Sure. Even recently. Will I keep dropping f-bombs? I dunno. It’s gonna take me a while to catch up to a lot of other comic pros out there. I think my usual LACK of profanity is what made this a little note worthy. Like that rappin’ granny in the 90′s. Or a dog that barks “I love you.” Seems strange when that guy who usually writes Squirrel Girl tells somebody to “Go F’ Themselves”. I get that. I’m sure in the Bizarro World, this same scenario is playing out– with TONS of posts about that horrible incident where Warren Ellis complemented a fan’s haircut and then took them out for tea and cakes.

4) The guy apologized. He was VERY nice about it. He apologized publicly in the forum. He reached out to me in a private message, I accepted his apology, he was happy, and CBR took the posts DOWN. This really was an over-and-done-with-issue… Until a Spider-Man message board– with a history of mods, admins, and posters saying a far greater volume of insulting things about Marvel employees– picked this up and ran it on their front page just to stir-some-shit. And it worked. Bleeding Cool picked it up to stir-some-more-shit. And guess what? Shit got stirred. To me, one of the funniest things about this WHOLE turn of events– is how so many posters FROM that Spider-Man message board have been the MOST vocal about this around the net– clutching their pearls, falling on their fainting couches, and writing lengthy Emily Post-like suggestions for how I should comport myself online– especially the guy who ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS has said that myself and others should “die in a fire”. Yeah. I’m taking protocol advice from that guy. *golf claps all around*

Okay.

There.

Said my peace.

Now go. Read some comics. Have fun. That IS what we’re all here for, right? ;-)

Dear Mr. Slott,

I love you.

Heather

Darryl,

Only in the comics industry would it be okay to call your paying customers nerds.

Thanks for the reminder!

Brett (Nerd because the artist I once supported said we were)

Brett, you read comics and you take the term “nerd” as an insult?!

Dear Mr. Slott,

I love you.

Other Chris

Wow, did anyone bother to read lejayjay’s entire post? By cherry picking only the first sentence, it makes it look like this lejayjay person was saying something much different then what they actually wrote. By reading the entire post, it’s fairly obvious he was being sarcastic.

Every fan had the right to be critical, just as every creator has the right to respond. If you can’t handle either, get our of comics.

Get well soon Mr. Slott.

Welcome to the Intertubes!

This is entirely typical. And wrong.

The initial posting by the fan made the classic mistake of converting feelings over a work into a personal attack.
Entirely unwarranted. It’s one thing to qualify a criticism of the work, and entirely another to call someone a poo-head.

For the undereducated around, the former is constructive and good, and the latter is… just the internet.

Hey at the end of many Internet threads, some times all you are left is “Go F yourself”. I’ve said/wrote it in exchanges. But….I usually don’t go there on the first exchange, though in fairness, I’ve not been attacked or slandered directly either. I also expect a quick delete of my posts and even a ban.

Tempest in a tea cup, indeed.

There’re far worse things to worry about. Grow a spine, and take care of your own trouble, people!

The idiot had it f***in’ comin’.

Dan Slott, you da’ man. Tell it like it is!

I applaud Dan’s perseverance. But that still doesn’t make up for his terrible writing. Unfunny, cheesy junk.

Tom Strong, that’s your opinion and I respect your right to say it. :-)

Whether or not you were on your A game is a moot point, Slott. You cussed out a fan, someone who obviously cares about Spidey just as much as you do. That’s wrong and just bad business. But instead of apologizing for GFY, you list a bunch of excuses; I was sick, I was tired, etc etc. I’m not doubting that you were all those things but, why not apologize? You didn’t feel the need? Having another off day? Are your socks on the wrong feet? Fans are always going to have opinions. Some opinions will be spot on, others will be totally baseless and false. So if they’re unfounded then, they’re unfounded; it’s some little pip squeak on the message boards mouthing off. Take it for what it is, grow up and either ignore it or respond in a tone that is befitting handling a multi-million dollar property. Disney now owns Marvel, I’m surprised their not saying something to Joe. God, what if Disney had said GFY to someone who didn’t like Steamboat Willie?

Wes,
This was not about Spidey. All I responded to in that guy’s post was a shot he took at my character and my ethics. I don’t have to apologize to someone who says I’m just in this for the paycheck and that I’m not a real fan. It’s easy for you to be an armchair Emily Post when it’s not you being insulted in a public forum. I stand by what I was feeling when I made that post. Could I phrased it better? Yes. But after a week with little sleep, where I was sick as a dog, and had a bad day at the doctor’s office– no. If I had better judgment at the time, I wouldn’t have posted it at all.

This isn’t just a problem of “being a pro” or “being a fan”– it’s also one of the risks you take when posting with your full, real name. It also makes it a little hard to take someone else’s finger wagging and pearl clutching seriously when they do it from behind the safety of an internet handle like “Wes”.

And, just to hit this note again– The guy apologized. I accepted it. The posts were initially taken down. In my mind, this is a done issue. Right now, this is just fun fodder for the internetz.

The long and the short of it is this: anyone who had the niblets to bring Squirrel Girl back into the mainstream has absolute authority to say what they want, when they want, where they want. Dan’s a rare talent and worthy of our thanks.

I think the lesson we can all learn here is that if you’re very sick, and you’ve had four days with very little sleep, and you’re in a great deal of discomfort, and you’re stressed out over work, and you’ve had a bad day at the doctor’s office, then it’s probably not the best time to go on the internet to see what a bunch of anonymous strangers are saying about you…

Thank you dan for standing up to a jerk who just wanted to slander your motives anon. either these comments shouldnt be allowed to be posted in the first place, or they should be allowed to be responded to in exactly as the person being slandered wants to.

I think this is a further example of how things have changed, particularly in the rise of the comics professional and fandom. To be honest, I don’t want to give any disrespect to Mr. Slott, but he should not have responded- at all. This original poster does not know him, does not know his character, ethics, or whatever. I don’t follow ASM but, from what I do see, Slott never misses a deadline, and appears to be a prolific workhorse. Right? We are in the era of ‘superstar creators’ more than the characters. Dan Slott should have ignored completely the one insulting comment by an unknown, sole message board poster. Now this is a headline, apparently. Will this influence trolls to insult more “professionals”, in the hopes of warranting a response?

Please consider this. I know Steve Ditko is considered a mad eccentric by the smug comics community of fans and whatnot, but his outlook that the creator should be less seen, and the work should be the focal point- yeah, things should really go back to that. If someone who does not know me at all insults my character when my body of work speaks for itself- I’m not even going to respond. “If you say so”, at best. But “Go **ck yourself” is amazing. Dan Slott is a *PROFESSIONAL* and he should represent Marvel, Spider-Man, and his body of work better than that. It’s very easy for Slott to respond with his defense, but, honestly, there isn’t one. Go back to being old fashioned. Let it slide. You are a professional writer- you’re always going to get criticism, especially criticism that is unfounded and ridiculous. You don’t need to passionately explain all the money you turned down to write Spider-Man. Mr. Slott, their minds are probably already made up. This should be about the title, not about Dan Slott.

But this is one of the significant problems with the comic book community today. I don’t want the creators to be unknown, disrespected, or not taken care of. But I wish they were less visible, and people cared more about the characters again. Wizard Top Tens and Joe Quesada haven’t helped, and this is the culture comic books have now. It’s also why I don’t post on Message Boards. When you become a professional, you are expected to operate at a higher level. It doesn’t matter if you’re “always a fan” or whatever a professional creator will say. You are writing Amazing Spider-Man. Don’t lose control. Standards. Let your body of work be your response.

Yeah, I don’t think I’ll pick up another Dan Slott book again. Loved his She-Hulk and Avengers Intiative back in the day. Hopefully Slott doesn’t go near any of the Marvel books I currently collect. This is WAY out of line. I don’t care what excuse he has.

The way I see it, Dan is a person just like any one of us and has a job and pays the bills, and when a persons been sick and had a crap time and your tollerance is low, you’ll snap. I woulda done the same thing if pushed to a point.
And like the article says, if you have a problem, post a constructive critique. Don’t go mouthing off about a guy. Heck, if I don’t like what a writer is oing, I just say what it is I don’t like and why I don’t like it.
But whats done is done, and good for the guy to apologise for it, which is also, very big of him. A lot of people probably wouldnt have and it could have gotten much worse, but it hasn’t. Good on both of you and lets hope that people take this to heart as a lesson in internet civility.

Cheers
-S

Kenneth P,
Would this have made any difference if it was an anonymous guy talking about me (AGAIN, not the work, my character and ethics) at a bar instead of the virtual world of cyberspace?

I’m asking, because I had posts up in the forum, the OP knew I posted there, yet was taking shots at me as a PERSON.

Again, if this took place in the real world, in a bar, would you have a problem with me going up to that anonymous stranger and telling him “GFY”?

Does the blanket phrase “he’s a fan” protect someone from taking personal shots? Does the phrase “he’s a pro” mean that I have to take any and all remarks made about me as a PERSON?

(And, BTW, I’m secret ghost writing every comic. Not just for Marvel. DC, Image, and IDW too. So you’re going to have to give up ALL comics.) ;-)

I think dropping one’s work because of that like Kenneth P is somewhat harsh, but it does connect with something I find myself having a problem with the last few years in regards to what I spoke of with books focusing on the writer/artist than the characters. And that is, the more I hear about, or know about the creators, the less ‘escapism’ I find myself getting from the comic. That could just be me- I don’t like to watch “behind the scenes of” specials about movies if I want to go see them- but, the more you become aware of the creator’s personality, the criticisms about his style, blah blah blah, can you really lose yourself in a story anymore? Or do you just notice all of the writer or artist’s little quirks and trademarks? Do you want to read The Avengers, or a “Bendis book”? I’d rather read The Avengers. But, I’m old fashioned. And that is nothing even against Bendis the writer. I just feel things are losing any sense of escapism and storytelling, and are geared more around events and superstars. Ego is a big role in this.

I believe if a guy comes up to you in a bar Mr. Slott and insults you, by all means, knock him out. But yeah- I’m sorry to be too hard on you, like a grandfather who grew up in the depression, but YES- if an unknown *fan* insults you as a person- on a g***amned MESSAGEBOARD- let it go, brother.

It should not upset you that much. Do YOU know what kind of character you are? Does HE? There you go. Whatever. Let it go.

For decades, people have worked harder than you or I and took it in stride, and got up and went to work the next morning. This is petty. You are Dan Slott, apparently with a huge fanbase. Doesn’t the ton of fans you do have make one criticism a little better?

I’m sure children aren’t into ASM as much as they SHOULD be, but you’ve got to consider- kids *could* be reading ASM. And who knows, it could be a slow news day- it isn’t impossible to say, a minor news blurb could be “Spider-Man writer tells fan to go f**k himself”. You represent the Amazing Spider-Man- you’ve got to control yourself and conduct yourself better. Surely you must know better than I do that the critics will ALWAYS BE THERE.

I’m actually surprised, and this isn’t intended as an insult/disrespect to Mr. Slott- but yeah, in a forum based around your *professional* work, you should know that you should ignore personal insults. Again- this guy has never even met you. Why are you so emotional and worked up about it? Be Dan Slott the “Superstar” Marvel writer. Those remarks should be beneath you, right?

Listen, everyone- whether you can admit it or not, comics are a niche industry, based around events and superstars, with a collective chip on their shoulders for ‘mainstream’ acceptance. This conduct wouldn’t be accepted in any other industry. Make excuses all you want, but you know it. And again, I am not attacking Dan Slott. I’m just saying, Jesus Christ, IGNORE IT. You clearly got your job based on your work. What else is there to say? This entire news item is pathetic, and a clear sign of how the comics “movement” works in modern times.

And in regards of insulting someone’s character, all I can say is… why couldn’t it have been Gareb Shamus?

I’m with Dan on this one.

I respect him because he says what’s on his mind and truly cares about his work. Read ONE interview by him. Watch ONE interview on youtube. The guy is passionate about his work, it’s obvious, and for someone to insult his integrity and motive demanded a passionate response.

Everyone has a right to express themselves on the message board, and I have read things about 1000x more vulgar, by both fans and creators.

Why this has been so blown out of proportion, I don’t know.

Keep up the good work Dan, there are a lot of fans who love your work and think that you are one of the most accessible/relate-able guys working in comics today, unfortunately, those groups are usually a vocal minority. Don’t worry though, we are out there, and in droves!

Keep spinnin’ Spidey’s web Dan!

Ignore fans as much as you ignore critics- with both parties, their minds are made up.

You don’t have to stop loving Dan Slott. He seems loveable. Again, this was just an error on his part. As he said, being sick maybe had an effect on his judgement.

If a newsanchor handles the news, and one viewer calls them out on a messageboard and says “their in it for a paycheck”, how will the news station react when they anchor responds at all, much less with a “well-deserved” f-bomb? You are expected to ignore hateful comments and be a professional.

Dan Slott *should* be removed. He shouldn’t be here to pal around with you who support him, you shouldn’t be able to keep responding any more than I should. This is what CBR reports on though, not Spider-Man itself.

Since when does being a Professional comic book writer make you a damn politician? the only one who is in a position to judge him for his actions is his employer..and if Marvel doesn’t give a shit..then fuck it! The kid had it coming and Its not like Slott goes around stirring up flame wars on the internet like some do.. he piped up this one time to set a kid straight that was attacking his integrity, you cant expect a guy not to defend his good name.

This isn’t a tempest in a teacup. This is an example of a much larger issue.

The response was a little melodramatic but he had his right to do so. Would it have been better if he had just not responded at all? Yes, but only because those kinds of rude comments don’t deserve a response in the first place. If one is to respond, Dan’s response is the best type.

A lot of people are being prudish because Dan used the F word. I won’t argue that you find the word offensive and powerful but it absolutely horrifies me that they see Dan’s language as more offensive than the insult that was hurled at him.

Dan, if you’re reading this, I haven’t bought one of your comics since your She-Hulk run ended but I’m going to buy one of your Spider-Man comics this week because you stood up for yourself and for all the other artists in the world. In a way, I think you stood up for me and others who want to be in the comics industry. Thank you, Dan!

Grr, I don’t understand this. So the silly human, this “Slott” insults someone, and it makes the headlines? We in Gorrilapolis have been cracking up at Warren Ellis calling his critics “fuckwits” for YEARS! Why haven’t you devolved mammals made an announcement about that?

When I take over man’s world, this will be one of the first mistakes I will correct.

I cant say I agree with what Dan said. But I completely understand. If you take into consideration what he was going through Dan’s reaction was founded. I mean, what the poster said was basically, you dont care about what you are doing. When in fact, not only did Dan care. He was almost killing himself to do it. I may not agree with the F-Bomb. But I do understand.

Did the guy deserve it? I would say so. He was speaking to something he had no knowledge of. At the very least it warranted a “Shut the ‘F’ up”

Dan,

Can I get one of those snot and blood tissues you’re sending out? And can you personalize it?

To my biggest fan.
Love,
The Slottster

That would be great, thanks!

I find it funny how people forget or gloss over the fact that most people working in comics are fan/fanboys themselves, the only thing that separates them from other fans/fanboys is that they write comics while everyone else reads them.

Most comic books today qualify as nothing more and nothing less than glorified fan fiction based on iterations of the characters published in the 60s and 70s.

William Byron,
I agree with you, man. But here’s the thing– this wasn’t the first personal attack that’s come my way on a message board. You’re talking to one of the writers of BND for Pete’s sake. And usually I either handle it more deftly or– yeah– ignore it.

But, AGAIN, this was one REALLY bad day– filled with stress, financial woes, lack of sleep, blood, mucus, and a bad trip to the doctor’s office. This was not par for the course. And, AGAIN, this was my 1st EVER “GFY” on the internet. It’s just that post struck me the EXACT wrong way at that moment– I’d gone nights without sleep FOR a Spider-Man script, I’d made myself sick OVER a Spider-Man script, and I’d just recently passed on a job that could’ve REALLY helped me out financially– because it would have interfered with my Spider-Man work. And that’s when someone posted, “It is just a paycheck for Slott anyway. He’s not a real fan.” It really was a perfect storm scenario– and I honestly don’t see anything like the reaction I had to that EVER happening again.

And seriously, people– this many posts on the subject? C’mon. Where are you every time Warren Ellis or Frank Tieri open their mouths? I’m gosh-darn Polly-frickin-anna over here. What a WEIRD line in the sand for CBR, the Beat, and Bleeding Cool to draw. I expect EQUAL coverage on the next comic pro who drops an f-bomb for crying out loud. ;-)

So when’s the Beat going to pick this up and accuse Slott of being crass and representative of the kind of people who now have control in the mainstream comics world?

Jonathan,
I’ll save you a dozen and make a lovely mobile. :-)
Mwah.
Dan

oh, I guess they already have. And they were on your side. What the hell? That’s amazing. The Beat is now aweesome.

To be fair though Mr. Slott, I think you’re better than this. I think all creators are better than this. Forums and comment streams are shitholes where smug jerks who think their opinions are facts and dorks with no self awareness clash. Of course being a message board addict, I’m sure you’re aware of this.

PS: Much love for the Thing series. I bought the hell out of it.

Mr. Slott- I understand, and it’s true, none of the fans have to bear the slings and arrows that you do. But again, you are much loved. I haven’t read ASM but a friend does, and she speaks very highly of it, and that in itself should mean something. The fans should and probably will defend you every time. Again, I do not understand the criticism if someone is prolific like you seem to be- people who work in the Hollywood television industry are constantly late with books, and little insults seemed directed towards them. But the people who *do* believe -know- what kind of passion Dan Slott has- that should mean alot, right? There will always be critics, and there will always be insulting critics. Nothing any of us can do about that.

What I can’t understand is why the phrase “Go fuck yourself” is supposed to be a horrible thing. If my penis was long enough to do, I certainly would fuck myself. Matter of fact, it might prove to be extremely enjoyable experience.

Now, if Dan Slott had responded with “I’m a HUMAN BEING! You’re being MEAN to me!”, that might have been worthy of derision…

Lugh,

Sometimes you have to realize no one person is above any One Thing. We are all human. And given the chance we will resort to, no, rather, give in to baser instincts. To err is human and no human is above an error.

This is why, even though I read comics, I hate most everything about the industry. I don’t really care about the original poster or Slott’s response. It never involved us and never should have. But comics is one of those weird things where, for better or worse and usually worse, fans (read: consumer) are given ownership of a product. I don’t mean the issues, you pay for them, you own those issues. But no matter how much you love Spider-Man or whoever, you don’t own him. It’s a creation that was conceived without you, continues to be created without you, and will most likely continue to do so long after you. Can fans effect what happens to something? Of course, but it’s not that regular of a thing. For every fan campaign that has worked, think of all the other creations that bit the dust. Yeah, Spider-Girl was saved from cancellation, again. How many other books have been tanked, regardless of how good they were said to be.

Maybe you don’t like what Slott said or how he said it. I like the word fuck and happen to agree with him. You may not. Ultimately it doesn’t matter because that doesn’t concern us. You took offense? You think he was unprofessional? Fine, drop the book. There’s your recourse. Nothing is owed to you. There’s no such thing as loyalty; it’s a product, you’re a consumer. If you’ll buy more books because you think you have some sort of claim to the book, that’s beneficial to the company but entirely in your head. You don’t matter to Spider-Man, it will continue without you. Marvel/Disney doesn’t care about your couple bucks every month. Know why? Because in the rare instance where someone does drop a book out of convictions is miniscule to the people who will continue to buy the book regardless.

They make a product. You buy it. If you don’t like something about it, don’t buy it. They owe you nothing. The transaction was complete when you forked over your money. There’s no special bond or whatever between you and Marvel/Disney, Spider-Man, or the current writer/artist. You think they owe you because you support them, because your money let’s them do what they want? They don’t owe you anything more than the issue you bought. They say, “we have this for sale.” You want it, so you buy it. That is capitalism, which has nothing to do with how you should or should not treat a customer. I’ve read Bendis cussing out fans, I’ve seen video of Warren Ellis cussing out a fan, and I saw Tony Millionaire tell a fan to “go fuck yourself” in person. All three times it was deserved and all three creators are still wildly successful and popular.

Get over yourselves. It’s an idea that was thought up decades ago by people who never once thought about you. It’s not special and neither are you. Buy the comic or don’t. Just stop bitching.

One final note, I thought Bizarro World Warren Ellis was hilarious.

kinda with Kurt Busiek’s “They’re both amateur message boarders, posting in their spare time.”

and both should be held to the same disciplinary actions as dictated by the MB’s owners.

if that doesn’t happen and “celebrity” members are given deference though?

that’s a whole ‘nother editorial innit?

To anyone who has a problem with what Dan Slott did after having his integrity, commitment and professionalism called into question by an anonymous web poster: Go Fuck yourself.

Seriouosly.

Go. Fuck. Yourself.

:)

Dan, you should be ashamed of yourself for not handling that like a professional, and you should be even more ashamed of yourself for continue to justify yourself with a bunch of excuses. Just man up, say you were wrong for lowering yourself like that, apologize, and move on.

Wow, talk about blowing up. I really think this whole mess should just be between Dan Slott and the original poster. It’s done and it’s not anyone else’s business.

Having said that, I don’t think Dan did anything that everybody has wanted to do at some point, especially those who work with the public. I can’t tell you how many times in former jobs that I wanted to tell a rude customer to GFY…and I was never attacked on a personal level, but I’m sure that would have made it worse.

At any rate, the guy has a right to take up for himself. At this point, I’m starting to feel bad for the original poster, mostly because he apologized and it should have been over. But instead, his mistake is being dragged through the interwebs.

“It is jus a paycheck for Slott anyway. He’s not a real fan.”

Why does Slott of any other Professional Writer who is essentially work-for-hire need to be a fan?

What bearing does that have on how well or how long he turns in a Assignment?

To Kurt Busiek, who is quite full of shit. If that’s the case, you, Dan Slott, and other comic writers should have been banned a long time ago. We’re all on an even playing field, right? Don’t give me this self righteous garbage that you know isn’t true. You’ve picked a number of fights and thrown out a number of insults. What consequences did you face for you actions? None, so shut up with your bullshit!

Haven’t liked a Slott comic since he wrote Arkham Asylum.

That being said, I fully understand, sympathize, and condone every word and punctuation mark in his original response to the personal attack. I can’t believe the reactions some of these people are having to Slott simply using the f-bomb. Welcome to the 21st century, folks. God forbid you ever watch an episode of Deadwood.

Furthermore… Dan’s mentions of Ellis are completely correct. No one batted an eye when Warren told a commenter that he was “dumber than mud fucked by a retard.”

@Dusty

Kurt Busiek is the voice of reason on any message board he comments on. Get a clue.

@ Jeff Frost

The guy can even sell comics or get a job on a high profile Marvel or DC book anymore. No need to kiss up to him! He’s full of shit or he’s stupid. It’s one of the two if he actually thinks the comic writers are held to the same conduct as the customers are at this place.

This -is- getting a bit ridiculous. Listen, lets organize a boxing match at the next NY Comic Con… Dan Slott versus the Original Poster. We’ll have special tickets and all proceeds go to ACTOR. If Dan can’t do it, a Slott fan can step in for him. All messageboard debates between 2 parties will now be settled at exhibition bouts at cons! You guys can have this idea for *free*.

Busiek CAN’T sell comics, I mean. This blog needs an editing function for typo challenged posters like me!

@ Dusty- this is a sincere question, not a snarky comment to what you just said, but do you think it’s possible ever again for characters to sell the comic rather than Busiek the creator, or any creator/personality? Thats what I’m talking about, man. it’s more about superstar red-hot writers and artists than the book itself. what do you think about that?

Quick question: Is this the SAME Dusty who’s defended a lot of John Byrne’s online outbursts?

You can all go fuck yourselves.

@William Byron I think artists sell and writers that Marvel or DC feel are worth throwing their support in back of.

Wow. I can’t believe there’s been this heavy of a reaction to one little GFY on a message board. Way to go, Mr. Slott!

In one fan’s humble opinion, Dan did the absolute right thing. Nevermind what the man said, the fact is he stood-up for himself, cyberspace or otherwise, people need to stand-up for themselves and make sure your accusers and critics understand that yes, you are indeed a human being and no, you do not deserve to be picked apart for your personal values or opinions.

The other day at work (at a liquor store that’s part of a larger chain store), I had a customer tell me, my manager, and the store to collectively go fuck ourselves because his $6 coupon wouldn’t work. He then threw his membership card at me, and had my boss not been holding me by the shirt and pleading me to calm down, I would have lost my job after the ensuing beat-down. I understand, after 13+ years in retail, what it’s like to be unfairly blamed and accused of B.S. that’s not even in the same universe as my fault, and also being labled a sell-out and “part of the problem” for working for big chain retail stores. I know what it’s like suffering through garbage “Just for a paycheck”.

So if Dan Slott is writing the GODDAMN AMAZING SPIDER-MAN just for a paycheck, MORE POWER TO HIM. Do you know what I, and probably thousands of others, would give to say they wrote one of the premier comic book characters “Just for a paycheck”, let alone for a paycheck and guaranteed personal satisfaction for the rest of my life? Not saying Mr. Slott has such a thing, but in my humble fanboy heart, I can certainly say I could die a pretty content man if I had a single issue of ASM under my belt, let alone an entire run plus an arsenal of great books to boot.

every single interview I’ve read involving Dan Slott has given me the impression he’s one of us, a true fan of comics, that made good and is now part of the upper-echelon; he deserves our respect if not our support, and to call him out like lejayjay did, even in sarcasm, is uncalled for and a waste of time. Why even BOTHER typing nonsense like that? Who honestly thinks calling a comic book professional, of all things, a check-chaser is funny, or worthy of the great art of sarcasm?

And yes I realize I use too many commas. It’s a noted handicap.

Anyway, good on you for resolving the issue, as well as standing-up for yourself in the first place, Dan. The world is far too full of ignorant goofs that believe they can simply get away with whatever the hell they want to say, without at the very least being called on it. I’ve enjoyed your work since the first time I read your first Sensational She-Hulk TPB, and I appreciate seeing someone I admire also doesn’t take the B.S. when the B.S. doesn’t need to be taken.

@ Dan Slott. I don’t recall ever defending John Byrne for being a dick (when he has been, not when the internet sheep lynch mob declared that he was being one), but I don’t recall him ever telling somebody to go fuck themselves. If he did, especially if a customer said “he’s not a fan and just in it for the money”, I would have thought he was out of line, too. I’ve criticized Byrne in the past for the way he bans people at his board.

That was unprofessional of you, though. I’ve never said you didn’t have the right to stand up for yourself or defend yourself and your work, I just have a problem with how you did it, the excuses that followed, and the way you seem to think it was somehow justified. It wasn’t. Everybody fucks up.

And yes, I’m the same Dusty that you know, and the same one that showed you how to post images on messageboards when you first started posting years ago.

@William Byron: As I’ve looked over this years of this silly human male fantasy of superhero comics, I saw the creators of the books become more prominent as the years go by. I feel that in the Bronze Age on-back, a lot of comic writers had a similar style, and comic artwork followed suit. But then the superior human writers(as superior as you pitful excuses for mammals can be, anyway) came into power during the 80s, with their distinctive, mature writing styles. Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Neil…God, what the hell was his name? Doesn’t matter, your simple human mind gets the idea. The 90s came along and artists became more prominent than the actual writers.

Jim Lee, Todd MacFarlene, and all those Image Studios who draw humans in obscene “perfect” shapes, almost in tribute to the mighty halls of Gorillapolis(your flattery is observed Mr. Liefeld, but I am still not amused). And after all that mess died down and comics became more niche, the writers were at the forefront. People didn’t buy the book because Superman was in it, they bought it because Grant Morrison was writing it. Bendis, JMS, Fraction, all these so-called “superstar” writers who have legions of fans, they are the ones who sell the books, more so then the characters themselves it seems.

Is this wrong? Well, that up to you apes to decide. But in the glorious godly wisdom of Gorilla Grodd, I say the greater appreciation of buying things because you like the creators more than “Look at me I’m the Flash I beat up Gorilla Grodd although that would never happen in real life because Grodd is superior to all humans” is an acceptable trade.

So you can say fuck Dusty and Dan Slott can’t? Why, because he happens to be getting paid for making comics? Wow. I guess anyone who gets paid for what they like isn’t a regular human being with rights provided under the Constitution. Jealous much?

@Dan Slott-by the logic stated above, Ellis gets away with it by living in England. I guess our original opressors over in the UK have more Freedom than us now.

Thanks Adolph–I mean Dusty, for setting us straight.

I have had a creator threaten to key my car on a message board. Did I insult him? No. Did make assumptions about him? No. What warrented this threat? I was on the other side of the political spectrum than he was. When I said this was going to far, others said the creator was just joking, despite the creator stating he WAS NOT JOKING. Nothing was done. Yet another another instance the creator stated that on a topic relevant to Texas “His Name slaps Texas”. Being a Texan I jokingly says “Texas slaps His Name”. No insult, just turning his own words around in a joking manner. If that was insulting, he was insulting to everyone tin Texas. Remember this creator actually threatened my property for my politics (I could actually bring charges against him for that) with the mods and others making excuses for him. Guess what happens? I get warned for insulting a creator. This was one of the major reasons I eventually quit the site. Creators shouldn’t be treated like shit, but neither should the fans. If ones behavior is considered bad, it should be considered bad on the other side.

@ Gorilla Grodd. The problem is, my dear Ape lord (I hope you remember me when Ape City overthrows NYC), that the rise of celebrity comic creator is problematic. To be honest, and I know this will win me little friends here, people like Grant Morrison, Gaiman, Millar, etc.- these guys don’t even want to be comic book writers. They never have been; they’ve always been embarassed by the medium, just like Joe Quesada is. They’ve wanted to be movie and television writers, making films, things of the nature. Being a comic book writer is apparently not enough, or they have to go to great lengths to tell people how much comics “aren’t for kids!!!!”. Alan Moore himself said the medium of comics will always do more than motion pictures do, but I digress. The point is, it HAS become more about the superstar creator than anything else. (This has nothing to do with Dan Slott however, who seems overly humble and an easygoing fellow, this incident aside)

We are in an age where, when someone writes the Editor and Chief of Marvel to say, “this writer promised this series i’ve been spending money on would be on time, and its late, can you respond?” The Editor and Chief responds with a smirky, “he’s got a day job, folks.” Uhh..?? Where would that be tolerated in any other industry? Why are comic fans on such a position of being *grateful* to the professional industry? An earlier poster said they dont owe you anything- to an extent, thats true. But hey! If people invest their money and expect a product, you shouldn’t accept nonsense like that. He’s got a day job, folks. As if asking someone to finish a comic book was ridiculous and you should feel stupid for asking.

A day job? Let him keep it. Remember when people took pride in their work? Why should this industry bend for “superstars”? Is it that hard? It doesn’t look like it. People say, “oh, those old Stan Lee stories were simplistic”. I am re-thinking that. Are current Marvels, which start with a splash page, end with a splash page (almost always with a character saying a snarky, ‘dramatic’ one-liner), have double page splashes, dialouge-less pages, etc.- those are somehow more sophisticated? How long does it take to make these stretched out, wordless stories?

Every method of thinking almost suggests the powers that be doing everything they can to escape what comic books were, and are. You don’t like thought balloons? It’s because people equate them with comic books- you know, the thing you are doing. But dialogue boxes with inner narration- who are the characters talking to, incidentally?- thats more like a *movie*. Got it.

Superstar creators, if you can call them that, are increasingly problematic and having a lasting effect on comic books. Do you remember when *every* creator was a superstar talent?

@Sean S

If you really can’t comprehend the difference in me, a non professional who doesn’t represent Marvel, saying the word fuck in a casual way, and Dan or any comic professional using the word fuck as a way to aggressive insult a customer who doesn’t like his writing and thinks he’s phoning it in for the money, I don’t know what to tell you…

Dusty,
There have been no “excuses that followed”. If you read my original post– I mentioned everything that was putting me on that short fuse that day.

Was it unprofessional of me? Yes. And for that I apologize to Marvel and to any young fans who might have been on the CBR boards in the brief window when that post was up.

Am I apologizing for how I felt or what I said to a PERSONAL insult that came from an anonymous source? No. I’m well within my rights to be a human being, to act like a human being, and to make mistakes like a human being.

Did you come down this hard on one of your favorites, Byrne, when he called the general readership “morons”? I’d love to see a link to that.

The comment in the OP were NOT about my work, it was a personal shot at ME, as a person. When I fired back it was not insulting someone on a “fan” level (their views or opinions about comics) it was cursing out a stranger who was using the anonymity of the internet to hurl a PERSONAL attack in a forum that they knew that I regularly posted in.

I’m not ashamed of that aspect of this at all.
I regret that I wasn’t more articulate– and that I didn’t have the common sense at the time to NOT hit the send button. But am I ashamed? No.

I am embarrassed for some people who’ve chosen THIS insignificant event on which to make their stand, and I will find it VERY hypocritical of them if they don’t deliver the same impassioned speeches the next time Warren Ellis and others go the f-bomb well for the next invective they hurl at a fan.

@Dusty

And the fact that you see a difference between you and another person is what the problem really is. All you interenetters think you can do and say what you want with no consequences. Yet these people who, for the most part, pour themselves into their work should just stand back and take it or only respond how YOU want them to. Ridiculous, you and lejayjay and every other one of these complaining ninnies hiding behind the internet are RIDICULOUS.

As a little background, I don’t post on this or any other board. I’m not usually a booster and NEVER a complainer. I don’t get into “flaming wars” if that’s what this is. It just really pissed me off that there was anyone denying Dan Slott’s right to stand up for himself however he likes. You don’t like the book: DON’T BUY IT. It DOES NOT give you the right to insult someone without them having the right to respond how they see fit.

Perhaps, I’m confused, or even a little naive- but this guy made statements that Dan took very personally, as illustrated by his response, and responded in kind. It seems the generally consensus of those criticizing him here is that he’s rude to respond to fans in so blunt a manner as to use the word “fuck”? This cannot possibly be a real arguement, can it?

The whole issue touches on a disturbing trend in modern discourse: assuming motives and attacking moral character in arguments. We see it in just about every political argument with people trying to assign “-ist” to everyone (i.e., facist, racist, socialist, communist, etc.) and it’s little surprise it filters out to other areas of discourse. It’s one thing to have passionate and heated debate about issues, but it’s another to have to attack the character of the people making arguments.

It’s very unfortunate when a relatively small, and likely dwindling, interest base, which comics is, starts engaging in this sort of ad hominem behavior. What was said should have been called out for its stupidity. However, Dan’s response should have been more professional. But, he’s made his apologies so it’s probably time to let it go.

This is America people, we’re better than this…no matter what France says.

;)

I was going to say that I am sometimes ashamed of being a comic book fan, but really, all fans are the same, and in all industries. Sports fans are equally horrible, for instance. And I’m not trying to attack the original fan, who apologized, but the others who think Slott was out-of-line for responding.

The sense of entitlement, the arrogance, the passive-aggressive whininess of many “fans” is just so sickening. It has always been. The only difference is that now it’s so very easier for creators (and other fans) to be exposed to it. There is no law that says celebrities have to be the “better man” and take it all with a smile, just because they’re celebrities.

Maybe it’s time for the fans to grow up and remember that creators are also people. With feelings, with bad days, and everything else. Hey, fans are going to be fans, and creators just should ignore childish, petty attacks? Why? The Internet makes it easier for us all to communicate now, like Sean says, we have the power to interact with the creators in a very immediate way, we should also accept the responsibility of acting like men and not whiny manchildren.

@William Byron: Ignoring your simplistic analysis of current-day Marvel Comics story structure and “everything was better in dem good ol’ days” old human man rhetoric, there was one point you mentioned that actually peaked interest in my simian cerebellum. We live in an age where everyone is more connected. Ignoring the fact that Gorillapolis has had similar systems to this “Twitter” and message boards for several centuries now, humans communicate with each other faster and easier then times gone by. This has its advantages, of course. Having open forums where like-minded individuals can indulge in their love of human male power fantasies or that one film with the shimmering vampires can be quite fun. Being able to quickly and easily state things that the corporations will actually see and might respond to in ways that don’t read like an automated answer(“Keep reading, kiddo! ‘Nuff said!”) is also a bit of a thrill.

But of course, I do see how it might rob a bit of the annoymous and mystery to the escapism. Now fans can easily know just about everything about their upcoming favorite things. They see solications months in advance, they have previews, rumors, teases, behind-the-scenes featurettes, and a dozen other things I can rattle off on in.

I remember some short time ago(although it might be longer for you humans, I lose track of time these days) there was this “Batman” movie coming out before humans discovered the internet. They didn’t have easy access to information, so they had to wait and anticipate and wonder what was going to happen. Nowadays you can find out so many damn things about the film before it even reaches the theaters.

Oh Grodd, I feel like I too have stepped into an old man rhetoric as well. CURSE YOU WILLIAM BYRON I WILL CONSUME YOUR FLESH FOR MAKING ME STOOP TO YOUR DEVOLVED HUMAN LEVELS!

And I’m still in my twenties, too. Sorry to be such an old prude! You touched on the escapism and patience factor involved, and thats all I meant. Not once did I say anything about content, story quality, or things like that. I did point out a factual observation, not a personal opinion. In that, comics of the recent and far past had much more story content and dialogue, simplistic or not- then today, and then made a slight argument that the splash page, slim dialogue comics of today cannot be more complicated to write. But yes, the Batman movie comment- thats more what I am trying to say. Instant gratification age. But thats another thread, I guess. Yes, Mr. Slott explained his motives, apologized, etc. And we’ve all established insults at anyone are not a good thing. Let’s all be friends again now. It’s the Holidays.

Thank you Rene, you put it perfectly!

@ Dan Slott

I don’t read everything that Byrne says, so I didn’t see that. I will tell you this, I lasted less than a week on Byrne board because I confronted him that it was time for him to stop being a stubborn ass and try to be the bigger person and mend fences with JQ and Marvel, despite me thinking Quesada was the bigger blame of the two.

I even made his wikiquotes page!

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Byrne#To_a_Fan.2FSupporter_Who_Suggests_He_Try_and_Regain_Some_of_His_Status_as_a_Creator

“John Byrne is tried of stepping up to the plate. John
Byrne is tired of “doing the right thing” and getting
f**ked up the ass for his troubles. John Byrne is
tired of being lied to. John Byrne is tired of
you.”

I vented about that to Gail Simone when he banned me, as she was working with him at the time. Byrne can be an ass. He can also be an incredibly cool and generous guy.

And yes, Dan, those were excuses that you used. Everybody has bad days, but not everybody crosses a line like you did when they do. You don’t think Brian Bendis has days that aren’t as perfect as most? That guy gets more shit directed at him than any comic writer I see, and he never goes off on anybody. When he first started writing Avengers, he seemed to have a hard time dealing with criticism, but he quickly sucked it up and changed his approach, obviously putting it in perspective about him having lots of people that DO like his work, as well as the fact that he’s got a dream job, and really shouldn’t be pouting about a bad day. He’s a class act. How bad does a day really get for somebody living out their dream? It’s all about perspective.

And Warren Ellis… lol I made him pee his panties when he tried to start insulting me once, and I embarrassed him so badly that he had to put me on his ignore list! I’d love for him to jump in here and try it again with me! :P

Just a reasonable guy

December 12, 2010 at 1:38 pm

Doesn’t anything think that the initial article by Sean T. Collins seams more than a little biased against Dan Slott?

From my vantage point, this looks like a minor thing that was resolved, but was hijacked for somebody’s agenda.

Ya, if I was Dan, I probably would have picked different words to respond, but the bigger picture is this article appears to be less about “message board etiquette” and more about “Hey, let’s all pile on Dan.”

Hey, let’s not pile on Dan. I’ve been where he has been, and I’ve said far worse and regretted it. It is called being human. No one, not even the original poster I suspect, doubts Dan’s love of Spider-man and comics. I think he is a great storyteller, and I tend to really dig his stories.

I love Spider-man – but Spider-man in make believe. Let’s all show a little more class and remember the people working hard to entertain us are real people.

Dan – hope you feel better.

Everyone else – let’s all move on.

-Just a reasonable guy

I’m actually proud of Slott for saying what he did. So many whiny fan boys always bitching about this or that and no one ever gives them some of their own medicine. It’s amazing though how so many fan boys are outraged over Slott attacking a poster with some of their own arsenal!
I don’t really get some of these fans though. They love the characters but bitch and moan over EVERYTHING.

As someone who has dealt with jerks on CBR message boards I don’t blame dan. I believe dan is fan not just in it for a paycheck. He dropped other books he was doing to work on spidey. It’s his dream gig and this guy. That is what these guys like to do insult you and not even reply to what you say really. I mean I post something on death of spider-man and I got reply and you are here. Meaning despite not like current spider-man stuff I still posted my thoughts. Like I didn’t have a right to post. There are nice people to but rude people make it hard for me to post on any boards.

@ Sean S

When you gain the ability to think, I’ll continue reading your dribble…

Dusty,
“Everybody has bad days, but not everybody crosses a line like you did when they do.”

Crosses a line? An anonymous person on the internet insulted me personally (not my work, ME), and I said GFY. The FIRST time I’ve said GFY in the history of the frickin’ internet. C’mon.

“You don’t think Brian Bendis has days that aren’t as perfect as most? That guy gets more shit directed at him than any comic writer I see, and he never goes off on anybody.”
Then you haven’t looked closely enough. I’ve seen Bendis use the “FU” comment TO fans on the Bendis Boards.

Again, I find it odd that you’re singling me out for this time.

Actually, Dan is one of the few writers working at Marvel today that actually has read a lot of their comics in the past. He’s definitely a more knowledgeable writer than Bendis, Brubaker, Millar, Hickman, etc…, when it comes to being able to talk about past stories and runs from Marvel. To suggest he’s not a fan is a bit ridiculous. At the same time, I guess saying that he writing for a paycheck does have some merit, as I doubt he’d write comics for free.

@Just a reasonable guy

You do realize only one line of one post of the poster in question has been mentioned in the article. That there was much more posted which gives that line dare I say it “CONTEXT”

Dusty,
Just so you know I’m not making it up:
“I’m sorry, that was valid criticism and a deserved more than a fuck you. even what the :)
what I meant to say was: suck my Eisner award-winning Dick :)” -Bendis
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?p=7116515&highlight=fuck#post7116515
Just one of the many reasons I think Mr. Bendis is the bee’s knees. :)

@ Dan Slott

I’ve never seen Bendis do that. Somebody would have to provide me with a link so I could see the context.

And you waaaaaaaaaaaay overreacted, and STILL are to this guys comments. You’re acting like he started swearing at you, hurling insults about you and family members, and did anything that deserved such a vulgar and immature reply. Was that REALLY that big of an insult to you? Something that you couldn’t shrug off and move on from? If it was, you probably need to develop thicker skin.

To an extent- one could make an argument Bendis could get away with that, because, you know, the critic insulted him on “BENDISboard”… meaning, that critic took the time and effort to go onto a board *devoted* to the work of Bendis. That is a little ridiculous. On the contrary, not that the original poster should be excused, he was, as I understand it, on a less specific messageboard. I mean, its not like he wrote Dan Slott personally, or went to his private blog. Again, we are still flogging a dead horse. I don’t think theres anything cool about anyone, fan, pro, whatever, insulting people, reacting to criticism, mentioning their Eisner awards, blah blah blah. Partially its because, I think its bitchy and a little childish, especially for guys in their forties. I also come from a background where that leads to confrontations in real life. I think we might improve all around if we ALL ignore people sending personal insults, therefore, you ignore it- it might (partially) go away.

And, what is this argument about “they’re not a fan”? You’re right- they are a professional writer. If you want fan cred, go read fan-fiction. The End.

I know it’s easier said than done, and things are never the same for everyone, but I’ve personally found it irrelevant what strangers can say about you. To let it effect you…. I don’t get it. Why is it insulting? It’s not from a peer, it’s not from someone who has walked in your shoes, or done what you have done. The additude of “now you’ve insulted ME as a PERSON, how am I SUPPOSED to react?” This is just advice- look at your accomplishments, the people who love you, the happiness you’ve given to a thousand more people than the one who insulted you. Easy as that. Again, Mr. Slott was sick and the symptoms have certainly been going around. But it’s best for every single person who is posting and reading this thread to just shrug and move on with it.

Just a reasonable guy

December 12, 2010 at 2:02 pm

@Allen T

I do realize that only one line of the original post was provided and that, in context, the original poster’s comments were more likely an attempt at a joke. I can see the humor and intent in the post because I think it is well known that Dan Slott is like the James Brown of comics – the hardest working man in the business.

When I mentioned class, I was talking to the CBR readership. Comic book readers get mad when comics aren’t treated like a serious medium, but we act like spoiled kids when we discuss comics and creators.

I’m just thinking it may be possible to discuss comics without insulting hard-working creators and it may be possible to run a comic news website without posting articles that are clearly biased against creators and are a much ado about nothing.

Seriously. I like spider-man, but I don’t give a F if the current writer of Spider-man responds to someone who he thought was rude to him. I don’t need 10 pages of discourse on the subject. Instead, I’d rather read 10 pages about the history of web-shooters, the true motivations of the Enforcers, or the tailor of the Rose…;-) You want to post a 10 page article about what spidey villains have for breakfast – I’m in! You want to share gossip about what someone said about what someone said – Umm,… no thanks, that is not as important as how the Shocker likes his eggs. ;-)

Dusty, people like you are why fandom sucks. People love superhero movies but don’t read comics because they don’t want to be lumped in with people like you. Guaranteed, if we had this conversation face to face you would have stopped talking and run away by now. Have fun hiding behind your computer, telling people what they can and can’t say. Oh, I hear your Mom calling you to dinner. I guess we’ll have to wait an hour or two for more of your wisdom.

@ Dan Slott

Thanks for the link, Dan. Bendis hasn’t won in Eisner in too long too be using that as a comeback, and I honestly have no idea what his relationship is with that poster to know if it was said in jest or in anger like your comments were. I can only speak from my own POV where he is concerned. I have been very critical of Brian. I’ve never once held back my opinions about him not researching or understanding the source material well enough, his bad characterizations when his dialogue all sounds like the same Bendis speak gobbledygook, and his weak endings (which he seems to have gotten much better at, last I read), and never once did Brian go off on me, insult me, tell me I had mental problem like Ellis did when I critiqued his work, or say anything disrespectful to me, despite me being very blunt and kinda rude in the way I presented my critique. He was always a gentleman toward me.

By the way, the whole “he’s not a fan” argument? Hogwash.

Just in case you guys weren’t aware, when there were no fans working in the industry books had circulation in millions of copies. MILLIONS. Now that fans have run the industry for a 20-30 years a book that sells 100,000 copies is a big hit. Personally, if I was an investor I’d want pros who do it for a paycheck.

Sean S, how old are you? Don’t go off on me behind your computer because you realize you’re safe from an ass beating. You really want to pursue your bullshit, then make it happen.

Right, that’s why comic books aren’t selling like they used to. People who are fans of the characters writing the books. Perfect sense.

*snort* Humans.

Wait a second Dusty, so since Bendis didn’t call you on being a douche no creator gets to do it to anyone?

And what the hell does “win in Eisner” mean? The i key is nowhere near the a key, learn to build a sentence before you critique other people’s.

Sean S, quit being a retard. I told you, if you want to pursue your bullshit, make it happen.

By the way, Sean S, a comma comes before a name when a addressing somebody in a sentence, so perhaps you should learn before you try to teach. Mine was a typo, you’re just ignorant and don’t know any better.

man, this shit is the problem. the fact that you are *able* to have all of these interactions with comic book writers in order to share your POV. who cares!!! this is now a personality-driven medium, i swear. it’s less about the characters and more how the personality writes them. boring as shit.

@ Sean S.- sean, I’ve got to respectfully disagree about the superhero movies statement. don’t you consider some people just like to go to the movies? if they enjoy Iron Man why do comic people assume thats going to drive them to visit a comic book store? some people go see films based on books, and thats enough for them- they dont go out to see the novel. just a thought.

How old am I? Old enough to give you a spanking. I’ve been trying to get your dander up to prove a point.

So, now you’re pissed at me. What makes it okay for you and not Dan? He is a human being isn’t he? Get over yourself. You’re no better or worse a person than anyone else in this conversation and neither am I. So please, please try to get over yourself. I randomly picked you to make my point, but to be fair your comments made it pretty easy.

MWAHAHAHAHA, watching you pathetic humans bicker like children is always an amusing event here in Gorlilapolis. How have I NOT conquered you witless fucks yet?

If I were Dan, I’d just walk away from this discussion.

I think he had the right of it a ways back – internet message boards are like discussions at the bar, where people occasionally get a little carried away, and sometimes bad things happened.

In this case, lejayjay made a comment about Slott (in whatever context) and Slott heard it. Slott called him on it, lejayjay apologized, Slott accepted. No punches thrown, end of story.

But since this is the internet, every-freaking-body in the comics-reading world now feels compelled to weigh in. This is the equivalent of your buddies telling you how they would have handled it, y’know, if they’d been there. Right.

Wow, what a response to something so trivial. Dan, I think you’re doing a great job on Spider-Man! Thanks for the hard work on a great character.

Byron, that was kind of my point. I may have worded it poorly in my haste. I work a lot with the public and directly concerning movies and I hear a lot of “Yeah, that was a great movie but I’ve never read a comic book.” Usually followed by an assurance that they never will. It’s disheartening because SO MANY comic industry people still seem to think these movies are going to bring in new readers.

And Dusty, yes my punctuation is suffering from haste, you got me. I used you as a punching bag to illustrate how angry one can react from someone WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THEM insulting them and diatribing as if they know what they’re talking about from behind a computer. As you admit to doing to poor, poor Mr. Bendis.

P.S.- I am aware that diatribing is not really a word.

Okay… Just so I get this right…

Fans can say WHATEVER they want– even personal attacks
And pros can’t ever fire back IN ANGER…
Even when they’re sick, tired, stressed, or showing ANY signs of human weakness– because they must be pros ALL the time…
Warren Ellis can say fuck to whoever– he’s exempt
As is anyone talking on their own boards.
Except when there’s an R in the month.

Do I have it all down now? Does my pinky have to be extended? Do I have to curtsy?

Jeez.

The guy insulted me personally– I was having a crap day– and I told him off with *gasp* a curse word. Heavens to Betsy. I hope none of you pass out.

I’m sorry, but after 9 days of this, I’ve gotta say– this is a joke.

The guy apologized to me. I accepted. The posts went down.
This was all over and done with 9 days ago.

Here’s the thing– there are posts ALL over the internet of pros using curse words to respond to fans.
But THIS is the line in the sand some of you have chosen? My FIRST “GFY” on the internet? Really?

The real story here– the story of WHY this is STILL a story– is that ONE Spider-Man message board w/ an axe to grind ran it as a front page story.
Rich Johnston found it from there and ran it on Bleeding Cool to stir-some-shit and get some hits.
THEN CBR put the posts back UP.
Then CBR did a piece on it, the Beat did a piece on it, and blog after online journals did pieces on it…
(One by a regular poster on that Spider-Man message board– a guy who’s told Peter David, myself, and others in the industry that we should “die in a fire” on numerous occasions. So, yeah, great to get etiquette lessons from THAT guy.) :-P

End of the day, this was a pretty quick back-and-forth between me– and a poster who took a shot at me. Almost as SOON as it happened it was over. AND fences were mended. AND the posts went down.

If you’re still talking about this 9 days in– it’s because a couple people wanted to stir-the-shit and you took the bait.

Whatever.

Nirakara has the right idea. Time for me to walk away from this “discussion”. :-)

@ Sean S

In other words, you backed down from your bullshit tough guy shit when called out! Figured as much with your type.

You are far too stupid to even comprehend the difference in “Dusty” getting pissed and “Dan Slott,, Amazing Spider-Man writer, Marvel representative, and professional writer, insulting a customer, and that says far more about your intellect than anything could. Thanks for playing!

BTW, I love that Grodd is just sitting back and laughing at all of us.

@Just a reasonable guy

My thing is that everyone should treat cordially. The complaint of the poster boils that he felt Slott was phoning it in (a valid opinion to have, not saying it a correct one but it was valid) but worded it the most stupid and insulting way. Slott insults him back. Standard result the poster may have been warned/banned while nothing happened to Slott (other that the story being blown way out of porportion). If the situation was reverse with Slott insulting the fan first (it happens check my first post in this thread) and the fan said “Go fuck Yourself” Guess what would happen? Same thing as the real scenario, the poster would be warned/banned and Slott and every other creator would never warned or be asked to tone it down.

That is a HUGE problem. As I mentioned I have a creator threatened to destroy my property just because I disagreed with him politically. If either side does wrong they should get warned/banned. The only exception if it is their own board (Bendis’s board and Bryne’s board they are the writer’s own not run by a neutral website)

ROFL I don’t know who this Dusty fuck is, but his easily irritable internet badass persona reminds me of the Great Gorilla War General “Dusty” Barnes. The battalion would often steal his bananas just to see how rageful he could get.

Ah, my youth.

Enough is Enough

December 12, 2010 at 2:40 pm

The fact that there are people arguing the pros and cons about Mr. Slott’s post should tell you one thing: The post should have never been made. As a pro, If you can’t take the heat, stay the heck out of the kitchen.

Mr. Slott and Mr. Wacker don’t have to troll these message boards like they do, posting rude remarks at their leisure. And don’t let them fool you, they do it regardless of whether or not a poster says anything regarding their work or themselves. Why? Because they feel compelled, like little kids. (“Hey, bruh, you’ve been Wackered!”) Seriously, Can anyone else think of a writer or editor that trolls these boards as much as these two jackwagons? I sure as hell can’t. Because most folks in this biz care about their reps and have better things to do.

And Mr. Slott and Mr. Wacker aren’t small business owners. They work for Marvel. Employees get fired left and right in this day and age for Slott-like Facebook and Twitter posts. (Yes, that’s right, when they’re off the clock, people.) And believe me, and rightfully so, no one cares if they’re “having a bad day.” Honestly, Marvel — a Disney brand, who deals primarily in family orientated entertainment — finds nothing wrong with this type of behavior? When IS Marvel going to draw the line with this immature douchebag — when Slott can buy pants off-the-rack?

And as for CBR: Hey! KIDS peruse this site! Why do your forums and columns tolerate not-for-prime-time curse words? It’s disgusting! Don’t you care? You’re not GQ or Rolling Stone. At the very least, bleep them out!
The same goes for Twitter: Pretty much every Marvel writer or employee can’t stop swearing on their tweets! Come on, guys! You write books that kids read! Why risk coming off as classless when all it takes is Orbit gum?

Bottom line: Why this behavior is tolerated by Marvel/Disney’s powers-that-be is beyond me. It isn’t tolerated in any other corporate entity, that’s for sure. Stan Lee’s regime never pulled this filth — even after they punched-out.

Clean it up, CBR.

Dan made a valid response with his first two paragraphs and just lowered himself with what he said thereafter.

Let’s not pretend this is an equal two way traffic between reader and creator. The creators are getting vast amounts of invaluable feedback for free and if the price is that we expect more professionalism from them that some of the nitwits who comment, I think they are getting a fair deal and need to stop being so precious from time to time

Wow. So I just heard about this right now and this all seems pretty unnecessary. Let me get this straight: Dan Slott got insulted (because someone thought he was only doing this for money and wasn’t a real fan? Correct?) and Dan got pissed and told him to GFY? Then the guy apologize and everything was resolved. And then everyone on the internet who is remotely interested in comics lost it? Why? I feel like we’re all entitled to have our opinions on this and I can respect that, but can someone explain to me how a bunch of anonymous fans reprimanding a writer over and over is supposed to solve anything. The guy was angry (justifiably so) because someone questioned his integrity and didn’t handle it in the best way. Woops!

What a bad guy Dan Slott is for not just taking it from someone who also didn’t think before he spoke. Cut the guy a break and move on. If you have free time to berate someone for being human you seriously need to relax. This has nothing to do with any of us outside of Dan and the original poster. Alexander Pope might have some wisdom a few of us could benefit from in this situation.

^Fans can insult creators, but not vice versa? This shit is too good. In Gorillapolis, fans and creators regularly fist fight each other for our amusement.

I feel bad for Dan Slott. The melodramatic proclamations of outrage from some quarters over a single line of retaliation against a personal attack are quite ridiculous. He had every right to defend himself, and I’ve not seen it written down anywhere that becoming a high-profile professional means you lose that right.

I think some people are getting worked up over how “unprofessional” Slott’s retaliation was because it makes THEM uncomfortable. There are few things comic book fans like to do more than villify, and it’s easier when the people they are villifying are abstract entities, onto whom they can project all these nefarious motivations and negative character traits. Read about Dan Didio or Geoff Johns online on some sites, and you’d think they were arrogant, mean-spirited, puppy-slaying monsters. But talk to them in person at a convention, and they are totally nice, down-to-earth people who will make time for every fan, and who are obviously very passionate about comics. But that doesn’t work for some fans. They need these people to be villains, damnit! How dare they be actual human beings who can respond to your abuse and tell you that you insulted them!?

This whole fiasco reminds me of that story a while back about that sad fanboy who walked up to Rob Liefeld at a convention and demanded an apology for “Heroes Reborn”. The massively inflated sense of entitlement of that guy was astounding, but by all accounts Liefeld just grinned and beared it through gritted teeth. I, personally, think he’d have had every right to tell that guy he was being a rude little dick, and to go fuck himself. But if he had, would he have been breaking that unwritten rule of decorum, crossing the sacred artist/fan divide and striking down at us lowly mortals from above in unacceptable, bullying fashion? Does the same rule apply at a convention, where a fan can walk up to a creator at his booth and just unload a stream of personal abuse at him, and the creator has to take it because they’re being paid for the pleasure? Or does it only apply on the internet?

“In Gorillapolis, fans and creators regularly fist fight each other for our amusement.”

In Gorillapolis fans can fling the creators’ poo back at them :P

@ Dan Slott

You know you can’t walk way! Warren Ellis isn’t exempt. Not with me, anyway. He’s not my Internet Jesus. In fact, I’d love for him to tell me to fuck myself! He doesn’t have the guts!

Seriously, Dan, just write comics to the best of your ability and don’t take criticisms and mild personal jabs to heart. Don’t insult the customer. Marvel definitely has created an atmosphere where it’s acceptable to condescend, insult, and point fingers at fans. I don’t see this attitude coming out of DC nearly as much. William Byron put it very well when he was talking about how problematic the “superstar creator” is in the industry. I would think that with sales declining as badly as they have, you guys would take a step back and ask yourselves if it’s more than just the cost that is driving people away, and maybe you guys might want to start kissing the fans’ asses a little more instead of thinking it should be the other way around. Marvel has always insulted the internet fanbase, telling us we only represent a small portion, and our views don’t represent the masses whenever our views are critical. I don’t think any of us are stupid enough to believe that Marvel really believes they spend so much time online because the internet fanbase is insignificant, but that’s how they degrade us.

As I said, I have no problem with somebody standing up for themselves and their work, but you should have been above that kind of response, and “I was having a bad day” doesn’t cut it nearly as much as “I was having a bad day, but that’s still no excuse for acting like that to a customer, and I’m terrible sorry for stooping to that level” would. Your offensive remarks were the worse of the two.

Anyway, I’ve said all I need to say. Continued success, Dan, and I hope that your higher profile will get us another Great Lakes Avengers mini series someday. I would be all over a sequel from you and Paul Pelletier!

“Don’t insult the customer. ”

Hmmm… I wonder, if comic book readers were considered customers would the adage “the customer is always right” apply to criticism of comic book writers?

So ignoring the sidebar William Byron has got going (hopefully, to be picked up on the forum shortly!) the underlying story is guy says undiplomatic, insulting personal remark and subject of said personal remark (having particularly bad week in general) finds they’ve run clean out of diplomacy and responds in kind. Just not seeing the issue really. Human being mean to other human being. Other human being not able to turn the other cheek. NOT A STORY.

All the arguments about Dan Slott’s professionalism are just smoke and mirrors covering that. Dan’s over it. The Fan’s over it. Move along, nothing to see here.

Now, superstar creators, their accessibility and the effect on comics (or rather on enjoyment of comics)… let’s begin!

Dusty, the only line that Dan Slott ‘crossed’ was through calling lejayjay on his personal attacks, he moved from a remote creator to a fellow human being who should be treated with personal respect even if you dislike him professionally. In this case, commenting directly on someone’s shitty attitude with rare profanity IS rising above it: Slott just stopped discussion about comics to a much more important discussion about how we treat each other online.

The power of online anonymity does not equate to freedom from ethical behavior and personal responsibility. In the analogue world, the common folk regularly make unfounded personal aspersions about a public figure we disagree with professionally or creatively. We can get away with it because it doesn’t reach widely or far; we have no significant power. I think it was good for Slott to put boundaries on appropriate forms of communication, particularly when he could be engaging in conversations with hundreds of thousands of readers. Saying it with a “fuck” you helped ensure the message was fully received. (A paragraph like this would probably not have any emotional kick).

On a related note, it does bother me that Slott and other Marvel/DC creators are held at a standard of public decorum that should only be expected of CEOs, heads of states, and those involved in the intelligence community. I would find it problematic if he were bad-mouthing Marvel while still working for them but, I think, that’s the only extent of self-censorship I’d expect of a corporate comic book creator/worker. Some fans want the comic book creators to have no personality or perspective or vocabulary beyond what they are comfortable with. They argue that this deviance from their expectations is inappropriate, lacks etiquette, is bullying, etc. Before he wrote for Marvel, Slott was a dedicated fan of comics, a working person, and human being… and probably long after he works for them, too. Lejayjay and many other likeminded bile-spouting fans need to be reminded that their ‘shticking’ at what they perceive as public figures is insults being received by another private citizen.

“Fans can say WHATEVER they want– even personal attacks
And pros can’t ever fire back IN ANGER…
Even when they’re sick, tired, stressed, or showing ANY signs of human weakness– because they must be pros ALL the time…”

Nope. Because you have the most awesome job in the world. And you know it :-)

One more quick comment before I sign off for the night. How many times have you seen a baseball player, extremely well paid, in a terrible slump, getting jeered and booed by the paying customers in the stands? It happens all the time, huh? How many times have you seen said player flipping off the fans or telling them to go fuck themselves in an interview? It is exceptionally rare for a professional sports player to ever react to a pissed off fan, no matter what insults are being hurled at them. Whenever they do react, the professional always looks bad doing it. It’s called the nature of the beast. You smile and take it, and if you can’t take it, you’re not cut out for the business you’re in. That’s life. Comic writers, movie directors, athletes, actors, singers, politicians, etc…

Let’s all get along. It is the Kwanzaa season… or, Christmas season, depending. Things can always be worse.

@enough is enough

You know many kids who read comics? Mine do, they’re the only ones I know. of course my 3 year old called the bad guy on Scooby-Doo a fucker earlier today, so I think he’s safe from corruption. Let’s be honest, most people on these boards are older fans who are really busy whining about how the comics have changed too much, and then complain more when they get reset back to how they used to be.

The only person who ever truly mastered the art of making people go fuck themselves is my hero Mr. Garth Ennis!

@Sean S.

Most comics today are nothing more and nothing less than nostalgic rehashes of the 60s and 70s. Change no longer happens in comics, all we get is rehashes of the past because the older fanboys who write comics have a grudge against the 80s and 90s.

@ Sean S.- I want to (again, respectfully) point out that, when -I- talk about how comics have changed, it isn’t in regards to continuity and character development, as Loki is hoping to elaborate more on in future debates. It’s more how comics are seen, how they are treated, and things of that nature. But thats another debate, right? Yeah, I am not worried about the status quo and this character being ret-conned, etc. With me, I’m more concerned with the underlying, but never discussed, embarassment and urge to get away from the COMIC BOOK aspects of comics.

I was reading an article about this upcoming Cap movie, where the producer, or someone, was talking about how Captain America would be humilated in his costume because its so obviously nauseuating, they were making an excuse for it to be a USO costume. And I was thinking, why bother making a Cap movie at all? Then, in a second article, did I see Marvel’s heavy involvement in the film. This is the problem! You can’t make a movie about a superhero, and have suspension of disbelief, and/or escapism. Captain America would, of course, be obviously humiliated, and yes, the film would have to reflect that. This isn’t a criticism of that movie- this is an example for the ongoing feel of how comic creators see comic books. They cringe when the elusive “mainstream” audience sees comics as “Bam!” and “Pow!”, and I wonder, whats so wrong with seeing it like that?

“They cringe when the elusive “mainstream” audience sees comics as “Bam!” and “Pow!”, and I wonder, whats so wrong with seeing it like that?”

It’s not the 1960s anymore, when comics were bif, bam, boom.. The medium must evolve or die, which is what it was doing in the 80s and 90s (evolving, that it. It was dying in the early 80s, when readers and writers alike got bored with the status quo at DC and Marvel and decided to change things).

Right now it’s dying again because right now nostalgia reigns and things are going back to how they were in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s, which only appeals to older fans and older writers.

I enjoyed “BAM” and “POW” as much as I enjoyed the Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. I don’t see why everything can only be one way. Oh well, I shall continue to vote with my wallet.

“‘Dan Slott’ tells fan ‘go fuck yourself” reminds me of the headline on Superman IV, “SUPERMAN SAYS DROP DEAD TO KID”.

@ Michael- when people equate slam bang action, or good guys beating bad guys, it means they think of the 1960s? if anything, it might take them back to a more fun part of their childhoods. but regardless. things have evolved how? it means you haven’t evolved if you use thought balloons? if you finish a story? if you can avoid using rapes, etc. in superhero comics? this is not about evolving whatsoever. it’s about pretentious creators, beginning in the 1980s, thinking they were more visionary than they are. just do comic books. it’s cheap thrills, not french cinema. but, like Sean S. said, there is more than enough room for everything. my point is that comic fans and creators have what I previously called the collective chip on their shoulders about mainstream acceptance, whoever the elusive mainstream is. “comics aren’t for kids anymore!”. yeah. so when these mainstream, non-comic people hear about comic book storylines where there is sex, or murder, or adultery, or this, or that, what do you think happens? do you think they think “oh wow, its not just cop and robbers. NOW that appeals to my interests!” No- much more, they probably are bemused and smirky towards it. Do you know why? because super-heroes pretending to be anything else are silly. It isn’t evolution- it’s insecurity.

@Sean

Sean, everything doesn’t have to be “one way”, but for everything there is a season.

Just like the 60s were the season “pow” and the 70s were the season of social relevance, and the 80s were the season of grit, and the 90s (from my pov as a reader of DC comics) were the season of generational change (i.e. Kyle > Hal, Conner > Ollie, etc) so must the first decade of th 21st Century, from 2000 to 2011, be a season for something else… but that has NOT been the case.

Thus far all we’ve seen is nostalgia for the past and hatred for the 80s and 90s for daring to change the 60s and 70s, be it by removing Spidey’s marriage or constantly rebooting Superman.

The 60s were the Silver Age, the 70s the Bronze Age, the 80s and 90s were the Modern Age (two decades = one age is a problem)… while 2000-2011 has been the Nostalgia Age, the Rehash Age, the age in which nothing changed for the better, just changed to pander to fans of the past.

Characters need to evolve, just like Green Arrow evolved from his original incarnation as an Errol Flynn clone to the political grump with a goatee he has been for three decades.

He should become something else, something that is as radical a change of what he was before to what he is now, and same goes for other heroes…. and those who can’t change because they are too stuck in a particular era should stay there.

@William

The idea that superhero comics should only be about one thing is a result of the sanitazion that took place in the 50s and 60s as a reaction to Seduction of the Innocent and other crap.

Man, Batman used to carry a GUN, and Superman used to drop people off building into airplane turbines.

If Batman started to carry a gun again fans of the 60s would blow a vein because, in their eyes, anything that contradicts the 60s is wrong.

WHAT!?!? This is outrageous!

I thought comics were made by robots and here I learn they’re made by actual people? Who can get MAD AT ME?!!

Eff this noise.

I’ll be in my spaceship.

For what it’s worth, I had no idea of the involvement of a comics gossip site in publicizing this exchange, since I don’t read that site. I found out about it through Tom Brevoort’s formspring account and thought it illustrated the bad behavior of a certain segment of fandom. It could have been any creator on the other end.

The one who misbehaved here was Slott, not the fan.

The first one who uses a curse word is the one that misbehaves because curse words are a sign of lack of proper retort and civility.

wow. first of, gotta say hats off to sir dan slott for dropping the f-bomb. he might not have been the first one to do that in the internet, but he’s the first one who had an actually credible-sounding lead off into one. so yey.

personally, i believe slott had every right to do what he did because it was, as he said, an attack on his being. the guy had all the right to defend himself from any form of verbal abuse. everyone has that. it just so happened that OP got slott in a bad day. sucks to be him. are there other ways to have responded, yeah. but would have it delivered the same impact as GFY? no. it was direct. it fixed things. job well done.

i think it’s quite stupid that we hold a double standard against pros just because they’re pros and we’re fans. we as fans can’t just go insulting who ever the f**k we want and expect to get away with it. i know it’s the internet, but is it wrong to have some decorum and some sense of etiquette? or, if you really do want to go criticizing everyone, shouldn’t we be at least open to criticism as well?

Fainting couches, “for me not thee” application of the rules, ad hominem attacks, treating creators like pack mules….it’s almost like this thread (the segment that came after the CBR homepage linked to it at least) was expressly created to confirm everything I said.

The guy who runs Bleeding Cool is just an idiot. It’s a shame that someone like that- I honestly do forget his name, Rich whatever- has a “name” and reputation in the comics industry, and poses for unsmiling, dour photos like hes a recording artist when listed as a guest at a comics convention. What has he done? Instigated with a gossip site. About comic books. Lame.

I agree to an extent Michael, and it’s interesting that Barry Allen has to come back, blah blah blah, because this decade’s hot writers grew up loving him on Super Friends. You know, theres a possibility that the guy who was 12 when Kyle Radner was Green Lantern might return him to being the “main” GL when hes 32, which should be next decade. But I don’t think just pushing things “darker” is evolution. Read the news if you want grim and gritty. I don’t need comics to reflect real life. I still don’t “relate” to comic book characters. I liked them for escapism and seeing things I *dont* get to see. You know, Captain America is such a noble character, it is nice to sometimes be reminded of his patience and good behavior- should I ‘relate’ to that? No. I am not motivated to go out and fight Hydra, though I did beat up a skinhead once. The point is, comic books are what they are- a medium that, whether you like it or not, was created for escapism, was created to be a lower form of literature, was created for cheap thrills. And I think that’s wonderful.

You know, five days a week, my mom deals with people who use the “well, so and so did the same thing, why don’t you get mad at them?” logic. The thing is? My mom teaches second grade.

William, the first ever Superman story focused on issues of spousal abuse, an innocent man being sent to the electric chair for a crime he didn’t commit, and other issues of social relevance that had nothing whatsoever to do with comic booky logic, like imps who speak backwards, dogs from Krypton who can talk, or any other nonense that is considered a staple of comic book storytelling.

How is Superman stopping an abusive husband from beating up his wife a form of escapism, or a lower form of literature, or a cheap thrill?

How is Superman asaulting the governor’s butler to get the governor to save the life of an innocent man any of those things?

Comic books were not created to be forms of escapism, low forms of literature, or cheap thrills… that may be what they were at one point in time, but that isn’t what they are in the least.

There’s one comparison I like to make.

Comic books before the publication of Seduction of the Innocent and all the other nonense that came about and lead to the Silver Age are like the original Grimm Fairy tales, which were trully horrific stories not aimed at children.

The Silver Age of comics is, therefore, akin to the Disney versions of the Grimm Fairy tales, which Disney dumbed down and sanatized into wholesome entertainment for kids.

The 80s and 90s, (i.e. the grim era, if you will) restored comics to what they were at their core by removing the trappings that were forced on them by SOTI and the Silver Age, which is something we’ve seen happen to the work of the Brothers Grimm in the last 20 years too, which a lot of movies and comic books based on their work that have nothing to do with the Disney versions.

Oh, look at Bendis’s twitter. He uses the f-bomb lot. At critics and people who do not like his comics and Slott, Big Time is awesome. I agree with Slott. Also, professionalism is fine as long as the critic or fan do not attack the writer or author on a personal level. Like I find Bendis’s Avengers to be horrible but he seems like an everyday guy and pretty enthusiastic about writing comics and would probably be a blast to hang out with.

You can judge somebody’s work and insult it sure, but once you cross the line into privates the professional has every damn right to put you in your place. That means the professional relationship is nonexistent due to the fan critic removing it with a personal attack. So attacking a man’s work is fine and dandy but attacking the man is fucked up. And you deserve whatever shit gets thrown at you.

Doesn’t the term “Grim” (as in “grim ‘n gritty) come from the Grimm fairy tales to denote horror or something like that?

Amazed that people seem surprised by Slott’s swearing because he’s a writer. If anything writers should be allowed to swear, they being one of the few people who truly understand the power words have, the reaction they can invoke and the abject outrage and offense they inspire in people. Swear words are words like any other, they’re nothing more than a collection of letter and sounds we, as sentient beings with perhaps too much belief in out own self importance, give meaning to.

It isn’t the word, its the intent. Go Fuck Your Self perfectly surmised EXACTLY how Slott (and also myself reading that post) felt. But that isn’t the point, this is another example of the age old problem of ANONYMITY THE INTERNET PROVIDES + INTERNET FAN BOYS = COMPLETE ARSE HOLE.

I HIGHLY doubt that the original post was in jest, with the frankly pathetic taking back of the words some idiot mashed into his keyboard a perfect example of just how cowardly and idiotic 99% of internet users are, all of them taking out their frustrations on someone they don’t know or have any real knowledge of, but dislike simply because their target has succeeded in achieving what the attacker wishes he could, deciding to show just how clever and superior a writer he was by mustering up a highly original, never before cuss that would send shock waves across the internet and convince the entire world of the writer’s genius and obvious position of all conquering god head of this, that and any other dimension, universe or time stream that dared to exist in the vicinity of this biting brilliant keyboard monkey and his head full of ingenius, undeniably brilliant thoughts and opinions.

I guess what I’m trying to say lejayjay is quite simple really.

GO.

FUCK.

YOURSELF.

I have no interest in the Mort era of Superman, Michael. :) I also don’t think everything has to do with Wertham and the Seduction of the Innocent as you suggest. He hurt the comics industry and was influencial in getting the code started- I don’t think he “held back” the onslaught of superhero decadence we deal with now.

The stories you describe, believe me, I am more than familiar with. Superman was an agent of reform. But the thing to consider is, these characters were a product of their times. They were created at the end of the Great Depression. They reflect that. I personally love it. I think those versions that struggled, who weren’t spoiled and indifferent, are the kind of heroes we need today. I read one issue of the Superman walking around the country thing and thought about that. Superman was a bit ineffectual, as if they don’t know how to write them. The Superman of 1938 would have stopped the girl attempting suicide right away, then told her to grow up and get over herself.

Again, this is kind of irrelevant to what I’m trying to say. For one thing, I don’t mean any disrespect, but I have not been quoting or giving reference to 1960s DC stories once in my comments. I’m in my 20s and when I was a little kid- yes, I read comics as a little kid- the Hulk was grey, the Thing was spiky, Iron Man had red and silver armor. Thats my childhood impression. I think you can provide escapism and entertainment without cursing and sex and rape and decapitation. I don’t need to flip through JLA to see Black Canary and Wonder Woman drawn to always show their thong-wearing asses (I thought this shit ended in the 1990s), and so forth. I wish comic creators would get laid, amongst other things. Theres this big thing to compensate for the medium by showing so much “serious” and “realistic” nonsense, its just more ridiculous and laughable than ever. By trying to be taken so seriously, it just looks like more and more like an angry teenager.

That’s why I like Byrrne’s Mos, because, as he said it, it was the Siegel/Shuster version combined with the Fleisher version in the then present.

Superman became inefectual as a result of the constant reboots and the constant rehashes of the 60s and 70s by fanboys without a clue that derailed the story to pander to their nostalgia, leaving a mess behind them.

I recently read Trinitty 18 and there was a line of dialogue I found hilarious.

Lois Lane is attacking Wally West, accusing him of not being fit to carry Garrick’s boots and dishonoring Allen’s legacy, and she says that if he wants it to honor their fighting spirit he won’t do it by cashing in on nostalgia and warping kid’s minds.

I couldn’t help but link that to current comics, which do JUST what Lois finds deplorable, cashing in on nostalgia and warping kids’ minds by rehashing the 60s and 70s to pander to older fans’ nostalgia and by introducing such things as the rape of Sue Digby.

Ironic that the dialogue was writen by a writer who is guilty of the former, cashing in on nostalgia.

Anyone who reads Dan’s tweets will know he loves writing Spider-man. Congratulations to him for standing up against the faceless insults.

Sorry people; Censorship of any kind is wrong. The original poster had every right to voice his opinion and Slott had every right to respond in any way he saw fit. You don’t have to like it.

Funny story but the bottom line is that the Spiderman comics have been AWFUL for the last 2 years. Artwork looks like a 5th grader did it and the stories have been stupid. The Brand new day run makes me long for the garbage comics that ruled the 1990s. Marvel has totally screwed the fans and made Amazing Spiderman a joke.

Sorry Marc. Thats very punk rock of you, but, even though no kids were involved, censorship of SOME kinds is still needed. Namely, where children could see things. I don’t think little kids saying “fuck” is cute. But that didnt happen here, so I am not bitching about it, this is just a response to your first statement.

Can’t this go away. I said sorry. He said sorry. I (lejayjay) wrote a post describing Dan Slott as someone who secretly doesn’t care about the franchise or the industry and is just milking it for money, is probably married to supermodel, and has ivy league children. It was deliberately over the top and I ended it with the phrase “yes, I am laying it on heavy.” Which in my mind indicated that the whole post had been an exaggeration.

I suppose the point of the post was to vaguely poke fun at the level of conflict that still exists on the Spider-man message board. It wasn’t well thought out and evidently wasn’t well written that you could easily get the point of it. As soon as I saw the level of anger from Dan Slott, whom by all accounts is just a great guy and the kind of guy you’d want in charge of your beloved comic book characters, I regretted it immediately.

The whole thing was stupid (on my part) and over with in a matter of minutes.

I certainly hope that this does nothing to damage Dan’s reputation as a fan friendly writer. It is great that he comes here sometimes to ineract. In retrospect, I feel he was fully justified. In my mind if you say something bone headed, you get put in your place. I wear the dunce cap and hopefully have been chastised to know better the next time.

Jay,

It is well said and you are correct. I think most people now are just spurred on to discuss other topics and are still using this thread. I for one apologize if I seem to be continuing the ‘debate’, but I think almost everyone can see you were joking.

best,
William

@Marc- I wouldn’t really class much of anything debated here as exactly censorship: discussing communication etiquette between a community of private individuals is hardly the same thing as a public entity/government oppression of what people can say. I don’t really see anyone arguing that lejayjay or Slott should face any punitive actions from their employer or the government or a desire for anyone’s abilities/freedoms to be impaired.

I do hope your intent is not to tell people that they shouldn’t be paying attention to this or commenting on it… that might fall under some people’s definition of censorship, too.

What’s this nonsense about Mr Slott being ‘unprofessional’?
It’s only fucking comic books. What utter rot.

As a fan of Spidey for 40 years now I can say this. Slott has made ASM my #1 Marvel pick, even over Brubaker’s stuff, in just 2 read issues. I don’t care why he does it, just damn glad he is.
I would hope he sees this just to know his working in spite of health issues is appreciated.

If you go to cons and talk to comic book writers and former comic book writers, and get an idea of exactly how the comic book writing gig works, then you’d have to wonder why *any* talented writer would do it. Mind you, I’ve been guilty of declaring disdain for particular writers’ work on certain titles, but I still respect that they are doing a job and, while us fanboys dream of writing Spider-man or Batman or whichever title you want to name, it’s not the awesomely fun profession of our daydreams. There’s work involved and you’re answerable to editors, publishers, and other executives while at the same time being answerable to the readers of your book and the literary heritage you are now responsible for maintaining. They also have about zero job security unless they become a big-name creator, and that’s true of writing in any field or genre. Kudos to those of you who write our books and try to entertain us month after month.

And lastly, I know I get pissed when someone implies that I’m not putting forth a good effort on my job. I would have cussed out lejayjay too.

Funny how none of that stops most writers from blatantly ripping off old comics or constantly contradicting their own work.

The one that there is nothng of in comics today is leadership or accountability.l

And I just read lejayjay’s comment here. It’ll go away dude. We all do this kind of thing sometimes. Don’t place more importance on it than it deserves. Lessons learned and all that. Don’t let it make you afraid to express your opinion on internet forums. :)

OK, have any of you ever seen Dan Slott! WHAT A DOLL! He is just so cute! How can anyone be mad at him with those eyes? Go fuck your self…I wish :)

SlottONSpidermanFOREVER

December 12, 2010 at 7:13 pm

THANK you Dan Slott. Forum posters and internet fanboys need to lay off the creative individual(S) that create the media that we all enjoy. If a creative individual is routinely horrendous at creating entertainment for us to enjoy with characters that we love, then we have every right as fanboys to speak our mind. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is the way that it should be conveyed.

Dan Slott is the best thing to happen to Spider man in a long time. I thoroughly enjoyed the few issues he wrote (especially his mysterio storyline from ‘Gauntlet’), and LOVED his run with Khoi Pham on Mighty Avengers.

Also, comic writers whose properties are NOT turned into movies where the rights are purchased FROM the creator himself do NOT make very much money, and have to do a lot of work.

With that being said, any creator who takes an already existent character, such as Spider man, and makes his series more worth while to read is DOING IT BECAUSE HE LOVES THE CHARACTER/UNIVERSE, and NOT TO MAKE A PAYCHECK.

As someone who entered the professional world (not comics, but a corporate job all the same) in recent years, I try to be always mindful of my PROFESSIONALISM. This means acting like a professional would.

Even if Dan Slott is not getting paid for his message board post (a ridiculous excuse), he is still representing his work and the company he works for when addressing a consumer.

Dan, would you have used the vulgarity in an office setting? If you worked in a “complaint department” outside the Marvel building (a public forum)? How do you think Marvel feels about an employee using language like that with a customer?

While you had every right to defend yourself, consider how your words reflect upon you and your employer. Remember that a large part of the country is still offended by the words you chose.

How about this as a guidline: If Spider-Man can’t say it in a comic book, should you say it in public?

William, please don’t use the “I don’t want my kids to see it” excuse. Responsible parenting that monitors their children’s internet use is what’s called for instead of censorship. It amazes me how many people use that excuse to ignore proper parenting skills. Oh, and do you really think that language that kids are most likely using as early as 8 years old among their peers is really harmful?

Good for Dan! You tell ‘em, Slott! That poster couldn’t have said anything more personally insulting to a writer, especially when just the opposite was true.

I like Slott. And I he has every right not to take abuse from fans ‘n’ haters ‘n’ the like.

That being said, I’m not sure I like this new era of creator-fan interaction. Maybe it’s just a gritty reflection of gritty comics — but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a comic in which Stan Lee told a fan to go fuck themselves (though that would be one highly sought-after issue). There was a dreamy barrier back then — fans wrote in, creators chose the letters they felt like responding to, and they responded on the letters page (I get the same pleasure leafing through the letters section of The Walking Dead — that’s how you do it!). There was a buffer there, and editorial scrutiny — they rarely printed letters slagging the issue in question (though I remember a few).

But now fans can reach out and interact with creators more directly, and the responses bounce back and forth very, very quickly. Growing up reading comics (in the 80′s and 90′s) there was a mystique to the creators of the comics I loved. Now, not so much. Especially over on the CBR Spidey forum, where creators exchange banter with fans on a regular basis — so much so that I sometimes wonder if Marvel shouldn’t be monitoring some of these exchanges…

I guess the genie won’t return to his bottle any time soon, especially for little old me. On top of that, creators have every right to interact with fans, especially since the creators are fans, just like us. But I think I liked it better when I was young and deluded and thought they weren’t like me at all. Seeing those creators in person (at cons) was such a rush…but reading their every thought and opinion beforehand dulls the glow a little. For instance, there’s plenty of John Byrne’s work that I own and love, but I find his forums (@ byrnerobotics) have really turned me off of the guy.

I guess I just like it back when I had no personal opinion regarding the creators at all — I just loved them for churning out great comic book entertainment. Keep it up, I’ll keep reading. And I’ll probably keep throwing my bitchy two cents in on forums, too, cause I’m a geek AND a hypocrite.

“The creators are getting vast amounts of invaluable feedback for free”

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

…BWAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Are you fucking serious?!?

There is an irony of having Michael Sacal post in a thread about fans being abusive to creators and said fan sense of entitlement…

personal attacks on
Grant Morison
Mark Waid
and calling
Gail Simone a whore.

…Michael Sacal Said it

anything he says he should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt

ManOfTheAtom (Michael Sacal) is a message board poster known all over the comics messageboardosphere for being rather… opinionated, shall we say.

This was a thread that popped upped when you google MOTA and Gail simone

“Actually the reason he was banned [from CBR] is because he said Gail Simone deserved it when he called her a whore, but support him as you like, he ‘rocks’ after all.”

and then MOTA lets loose:

“I did not call Gail a whore AT Pulse, that happened YEARS ago at the CBR chat room, Padding/Mangaman/Marvelman’s the one that brought that old argument to that particular thread, not me. Yes, I did call her that and see no reason to deny it, but I thought she deserved it back and I still think so now. See, my problem with Gail is that from the first movement I’ve met her she’d had this “I’m better than everyone else” attitude towards people, and that’s a trait I really hate in others… So we kept running in to each other in the chat and her attitude kept getting worse, not just towards me but towards others that I could notice, mainly those that like continuity. I’d ask stuff like ‘would you be ok with a story about Gwen Stacy being alive today?’ and she’d say sure, which I’d counter with a ‘but she’d dead, it wouldn’t make sense’. She’d reply to that with what’s become standard for whinny writers re: continuity.

“And all of that would lead to even more exchanges in conversation where her attitude problem would become more and more apparent. And it hasn’t gotten better lately, but before talking about that I’ll tell of other stuff that happened in the chat room re: my site, so there’s no confusion. A lot of times the guys from the site and I would meet in the CBR chat to discuss our fan fic site, and then Gail would come in and ask what was going on. I, solely in the spirit of replying to her so she’d know what was going on, would say something like ‘not much, we’re talking about our site. Here’s the link, check it out if out like’ Sometimes I’d give her the link after someone would tell her ‘we’re talking fan fic.’ or the like. I’d say ‘yeah, here it is’ or something like that.

“Since then Gail has taken to saying that I showed her the link because I’m in desperate need of her approval or something like that, which couldn’t be farther from the truth. This is a person whose opinion doesn’t matter to me, so why would I want her approval on my fan fic? I was just replying to her question, nothing more and nothing less. I didn’t set out to insult this person, that’s a remark she earned after months of being unable to threat me with respect… respecting people in chat rooms hasn’t killed anyone yet, so it wouldn’t have killed her to do the same. See, whore may have been too strong of a word, I am willing to admit to that.”

(“Whore may have been too strong a word”. Gee, you think?)

It gets better, when he explains past comments: Anyone who liked Grant Morrison’s Fantastic Four series is a pervert, the word ____ isn’t racist in the 41st century, and more. Some selections:

“My dislike for [Superman: Birthright, by Mark Waid] is because it’s one of the worst stories ever done in comics. It’s like it was writen by a five year old that doesn’t have an original idea of his own.”

“Eddie Berganza’s an inept writer, and Mark Waid’s latest offerings have been the work of an inept writer. A monkey with a word processor could do what he’s been doing lately.”

“Dude, it [The idea that Namor is a Johnny Storm-substitute to Sue Storm, something that Grant Morrison mentioned as a throwaway idea in passing when promoting his Fantastic Four series] went beyond the idea happening or not, it became a virtual cult to Morrison. Agree with him or die was the theme (agree in general, not just with the incest).”

“And not that it’s any of your business but I’ve dealt with many other editors other than Jamie Rich and had much better and more positive experiences talking with them than I ever did with him…” [Not that Jamie had been mentioned previously in the thread or anything...]

The thread then gets locked. But is that the end? Of course not! Because Gail Simone herself then starts another thread about the subject:

“Let me say, I had no beef with Mota, but the vast majority of CBR did, and he was the most-requested prospect for banning, ever, and there was actual rejoicing when he was finally booted. The chat room immediately became a vastly nicer place, and I think you can ask almost anyone who was there, they’ll tell you the same. His handle is still used as a generic term for complete trollish assery… Why, if Mota is such a swell guy and innocent victim as he portrays himself, is he so universally loathed that he has been banned at CBR, banned at Pulse, and is in danger of being banned here, according to administrators? He wants you to believe it’s because people are out to get him, rather than the endless parade of lies, disinformation, insults, and sheer jackass behavior that has pissed off not just pros but huge numbers of posters who somehow manage to make their points without being obnoxious and rude… Just some thoughts. Most hated poster probably ever at CBR, and the main reason many pros won’t post at or even read the Pulse and Newsarama message boards, but somehow, it’s not his fault. It’s Waid’s fault, or MY fault, or Jen’s fault. Please. Some people need a nap and a bottle so the grown-ups can have an adult discussion. That’s it. Sorry, but I’m kinda tired of reading his paranoid little weirdnesses about me.”

so as you can see Michael Sacal defending internet posters calling creastors names is HIGHLY SUSPECT since he is one of those thast think he is ENTITLED TO DO SO NO MATTER WHAT

I’m sure it’s been said already but fandom in general sucks. Come on, insult a guy’s work on any other day and they just might turn the other cheek. Slott states that he’d been ill and in need of sleep, anyone who’s worked in that condition is bound to be irritable. Maybe Mr. Slott should have taken the higher ground but he’s human and fans at large should learn some manners.

I think Slott should of just ignored it. Sticks and stones….

Being a celebrity, or famous, or a well known writer. There is going to be a spotlight on you. And you have to act accordingly, unless you don’t care about the backlash.

Can you imagine if an actor, getting criticised for their work, did the same thing as Slott?!? It’d be on the 6 oclock news!! haha…

I don’t understand why the writers or editors are interacting with readers on message boards. It seems like playing with fire to post at a more or less public message board like CBR when you are going to be one of the topics discussed. I think it’s a bad idea to interact so closely with fans who are so passionate in a largely anonymous setting. Things will get said by both sides that are regrettable. I know writers are most likely fans as well, but them’s the breaks.

I just got back into comics (I miss the letters columns; that’s the kind of writer/editor/fan interaction I liked), and I was shocked by what I read on the Spider-Man board. There is no need for the editor of the book to argue with unhappy readers (or former readers) on the Internet. It seems unprofessional and petty. I’m surprised Marvel/Disney allows it.

Good for Slott, Brav-freaking-O!

I haven’t been a large presence on this forum until now, but like Slott, I’m a writer who works with treasured properties, and when folks directed this to my attention I felt compelled to weigh in here.

Not only can I sympathize with Slott, but his situation is quite familiar to a lot of us who do what he does (and the various iterations thereof). Many times in the past have colleagues written or called to complain about this very double standard, and we’re all left frustrated by the lack of “proper response” to this particularly noisome aspect of fandom. In light of this, I’ve come up with a “solution” that works for me.

Although I haven’t purchased Spidey in some years, today I realized that this fact gives me an interesting (and perfectly American) opportunity to support Slott in the most tangible way I know: I’ve decided to start monetarily supporting Slott and his work specifically *because* of this situation. However one feels about the wording of his response, I think it’s not only proper, but fitting in this social media age, for writers to engage those “fans” who engage in this sort of over-the-line, attention-grabbing character assassination. Sure, the prevailing wisdom says they’re more trouble than they’re worth, but I think that decision should be left up to us — you know, the guys whose character (and often reputation) is on the chopping block.

Like him or no, the fact remains that for the next year (minimum), Dan Slott’s work *will* get my monetary support. I’m not interested in making this a ‘Net meme, but I will humbly request that you consider doing the same. Although Dan will reap the financial rewards, however small they may be, *all* writers will thank you for it.

I’m with Slott, here.

I mean, dropping an f-bomb… if that’s the worst you stumble across on the internet, you’re lucky. There are far worse things to stumble across online.

And apparently, what Dan said got the point across that he’d drop the gloves if someone went and put words in his mouth, or decided to paint a picture of his motivations without any basis. The point was so clear… it got an apology. On the internet, someone was willing to apologize with how he cut the crap and spoke his mind. That’s no small feat. I mean, what he responded with might not be up there with the most famous Winston Churchill speeches, but even that guy would tell people to GFY when it counted, and he’s a well-acknowledged orator.

So yeah, lack of outrage for me. Slott should go have the legendary NyQuil, Sprite, and chicken soup cocktail, get healthy, and keep kicking out damned fun books.

aaarrrr…poor Dan

Newsflash: Comic Book Writer shows he’s only human.

Seriously, what’s the issue here? There was less outrage when George Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq.

There’s really no story here.

A fan said somethings that Slott took offense with and replied with a”GFY”. Said fan apologized and everyone moved on.

No one has the right to insult anyone else and not expect anything in return. It really is that simple. If you want to give feedback to a creator about the quality of his work, just do it. Criticize the work but for God’s sake, keep it to that. Don’t insult people you’ve never met and know nothing about.

I don’t know how many people taking offense with Slott are employed in the services sector. If someone comes into my office and criticizes our customer service, i am obliged to listen. If he begins to insult me personally and goes over board, i am well within my rights to call him out on it and if it gets out of hand, ask for security to see him out. It really is that simple.

It is completely hypocritical for people to say they can insult comic creators under the cover of anonymity and not expect anything in return. It’s crap. Anybody that thinks that should go fuck themselves.

so… some people in your side of the globe celebrate the fact that, say, a battered wife to divorce her husband, take sole custody of the kids, and get half of what he’s worth, or maybe it’s ok for a young prim and proper lady to accidentally stabbed her attacker in self defense and get off the hook, but a writer can’t call out someone for possibly slanderous comments he made against the writer’s person, because said writer should be “professional.” wow. just bloody fucking brilliant

Everytime Slott posts on that forum it’s car crash material.

greatmetropolitan

December 13, 2010 at 4:55 am

For the record:

– Dan Slott did nothing wrong. He is a good writer.
– Kurt Busiek is awesome.
– Trashing anyone personally on a public forum is classless and you deserve what you get.
– Comic book writers are not the moral guardians of society and are not responsible for the language that anyone uses.
– If you have a problem with profanity, get off the internet immediately.
– Dan Slott was insulted on a personal basis, not a professional one. This means the customer/seller relationship was not in play, so any “customer is always right” or similar arguments are nonsense.

As Mr Slott said above, we should all just go read some comics and have fun, and stop working ourselves up over the small stuff. It’s a fun medium, it’s a fun industry. Bygones.

All the posts aside. I’m a comic shop owner in Florida and I can honestly say that I have had more people adding the title to their pull with Big Time, taking my totals for standing pulls on ASM up to the numbers I had prior to the One More Day storyline. So for those of you who want to drop the book just because Mr. Slott is writing it, don’t worry cause their are others willing to read it because of Mr. Slott. Just make sure that you remember to drop all the books whose authors are dropping f-bombs to their fans, cause you sure don’t want to be hypocritical.

Dan,
Good for you. I understand this happened days ago, but snide comments that are said for a laugh can live on for a long time. You have every right to respond.

-Tony

*sigh*

I miss the days when we could just debate Thor vs Hulk fight or something on that level. I think “most” of us are taking this too personally.

Seriously, buy the comic or don’t. Write a letter why you do or don’t like a comic. Express your interests or don’t, but think about your actions before you express them.

un suspend brianobx

I love everybody(except that Dusty guy and the other dude that spawned Dan’s response)!

I’m of the belief that things like these would be different if creators would have more of a presence on message board. The strongest critics turn into kittens when they talk to popular figures. Sportsmen say “fans hate me when i’m on the field but when I see them in real life they are all nice to me”. But I think if creators talked more to fans it would defuse a lot of misconceptions and misunderstanding. For example fans say “How dare Bendis killed Hawkeye, he was the most beloved Avenger!”. And Bendis would answer “don’t you understand that is why I did it?”. Things like that.

First Reaction: This is a kids book. Don’t use the F-Bomb. Ever. No matter what. Imagine JK Rowling telling a kid (for all you know on a message board) to go F-himself.

I’m on Dan’s side in the principle of it all, because it was total bush league that he was, regardless of the intent of jest since that came out after the exchange, basically insulted in such a way.

However, I think that he could have handled it better, but I DO understand that sometimes you just need to go off.

I actually AM a writer; I have a published book and everything you can look up on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, and writing about politics, I get called a lot of horrible things and have so many “motives” ascribed to me it’s ridiculous. And being a former officer, I was consistently called a Nazi or a Fascist or any number of terms that insulted me, my heritage, my family, my country, etc.

While I never went off myself, DAMN did I want to! lol

I wish he would have put it in a professional way and not stooped to the level of the OP, but I can’t say he wasn’t justified and I back Dan in spirit if not in the exact verbage.

Incidentally, please write more Avengers comics again. I miss them. Thank you.

I just want to thank William Byron and Gorilla Grodd for making this otherwise pointless thread enjoyable to read. We need more posters like you.

(And I, for one, welcome our new Ape Overlords. :D )

I can only go from my own personal experience, but Dan Slott is one of the nicest, most generous creators in the industry.

I’ve actually dropped visiting message boards all together because of the behavior of fans like this. I used to really enjoy the Avengers Forever forum, because growing up there weren’t a lot of us Avengers fans (everybody seemed to like the X-Men instead). Then Bendis turned the Avengers into Marvel’s flagship franchise, and suddenly all these new fans flood the boards. It could have been great!

Unfortunately, the hardcore anti-Bendis posse came out of the woodwork, and suddenly a long-time fan so much as voicing my opinion in favour of some of the work that Bendis had been doing was shunned as a traitor and had to endure post after post slagging the guy!

I tried to stand up for what I felt was good about the book, while recognizing that it still had deficiencies, but the berating got to be too much… soon I discovered that, not only wasn’t I enjoying visiting the site anymore, it was actually affecting my enjoyment of the books! And yet I continued to visit the site more out of habit than anything else.

Anyway, a few months back, I decided enough was enough and quit visiting Avengers Forever. And you know what… I enjoy the Avengers books again! So I’ve said so long to the idiots of message boards. Comic books should be an escape, not a cause for added stress.

So me, I’m on Dan’s side on this one.

Everyone needs to just go back and realize that Spider-man goes *thwip* *thwip*

I think Mr. Slott should be immediately taken off of Amazing Spiderman ( a title I have no interest in, not because of any past storylines like OMB, BND, or what not, but instead have never had any interest in just not a big Spidey fan in solo, love him on team ups ). But back to my original point, Mr. Slott should IMMEDIATELY be taken off Amazing Spiderman. And put back on Mighty Avengers with Khoi Pham. Seriously. I. miss. the. hell. out. of. that. book.

He was attacked personally and responded personally. Good for him. Both original parties have moved on and made ammends, even better.

Also @ Gorilla Grodd

Where can one read of your visions for a world ruled by obvious superior Ape Overlords, and is there a place in your regime for a lowly human to serve in an office position and if so where can one apply?

Maybe someone mentioned it but:

Dan Slott goes to 4Chan.

Not /b/, /r9k/ or any of the horrible ones is known for, just /co/ (Comics and Cartoons) from what I know, but still, it stands.

Fun guy, though. Makes sense he won’t take no shit.

Also, I’m not saying that’s a big deal or anything.

I personally find it pretty awesome, because it means he’s probably got a great sense of humor.

Dan Slott needs to grow thicker skin.

I am so buying like 5 Dan Slott comics next month.

I am so moved by this now to tell this client of mine that I’ve had for a bit to go fuck himself. He’s not buying a house anytime soon, he wastes so much of my time.

Seriously

Go.Fuck.Himself

Thank you Dan Slott, I will say this proudly

In all fairness to myself, today is the first day I’ve heard of this, and I find it quite shocking. While the original thread was baseless and completely subjective, Mr. Slott really blew things way out of proportion. I thought he drove the point home pretty effectively with the content of his post, namely by mentioning turned down another job and had to be REMOVED by his editor. Those reasons are impressive for a writer in any medium and demonstrate a strong will to work. That said, he simply took it way too far. I understand that he was very stressed and sick at the time, and I can commiserate with that, but as a professional, he needs to demonstrate much greater decorum towards his “fans” (even lack thereof), the potential consumers of his product. As an employee and therefore representative of Marvel Comics, the burden on him exists to act in a professional matter at all times while representing his work for the company in all mediums.

As for responsibility of the internet, one may say that he’s only exercising the same freedom that random flamers or posters have, but this is simply not the case. In an internet plagued with anonymity and unaccountability, many people have the luxury of making baseless comments. Dan’s decision to veto his anonymity by using his real name removes some of the freedom for making vulgar attacks in return, because he can now be held accountable for them. Furthermore, his status as a “professional” separates him from the rest of the crowd. The idea o crowdsourcing and the internet may be destroying the dichotomy between amateur and professional, but for now, that separation still exists, and it’s the duty of the professional to be professional.

And finally, professionals simply cannot act like this. He brought up that quote from Bendis about him telling other people to suck his (or the Eisner Award’s?) dick because he has awards for his writing. He didn’t mention if this is a quote from a message board or offline, but the difference is astronomical. That kind of language–like what Dan Slott said–is reprehensible as a writer and professional no matter where it’s said, but at least if it’s said offline, there’s plausible deniability. In any case, using quotes from Bendis and Warren Ellis–of all people–is firmly wrong as well. What’s he going with, the “I only do it because everyone else is doing it” argument? That’s ridiculous. Just because you did something wrong that other people have done wrong before and you’ve gotten away with it doesn’t make it right. We learn that in like… second grade. It’s a terrible argument. The original poster came clean and admitted he was wrong–now it’s time for Dan Slott to do the same thing.

Furthermore, of all the characters to write for…. you’re writing for Spider-Man, man! Not Punisher or some bad-ass; Spider-Man. No way would Spider-Man, ever, in costume, as a “professional”, go off on JJ. Jamison or some other baseless critics with a “Go. Fuck. Yourself.” Or even if he would, Marvel would NEVER be able to commit it to print, so Dan should never be able to either.

The real issue is whether Dan Slott represents Dan Slott or Marvel Comics/Disney.

This is not a situation of one unpaid message-poster bickering with another unpaid message poster. When Dan Slott goes onto a message board to discuss the book he writes for a publicly traded company, whether he likes it or not, he represents that company. With that in mind, his behavior should reflect that reality.

Maybe the guy “deserved” an F-bomb because his comment (as I’ve read it here) seemed callous and unqualified. But Dan, really? You have to be measured in your response– ESPECIALLY when the comments are without merit… and if the repost comicnerd made were your words– you said it better than anybody.

Professional athletes and politicians are subject to the same “unfair” standard. So, while you are legally entitled to respond in anyway to anything you read online that is irresponsible, innacurate, or undermines your worldview– don’t do it as Dan Slott on message boards about comics written by Dan Slott for company “X” and not expect people to make a double-take when you deal with matters in the way you did.

You’re not just anybody in that context.

If you ask me, Dan Slott demonstrated the writer’s talent for finding just the right words for the situation.

@comicfan

Constructive criticism is fair game; questioning motives or cheap shots are not.

For example:

Anyone who is going to post in a public forum should learn proper grammar. You need to learn the difference between ‘weather’ and ‘whether’. You also need to learn to use commas, capitalization and to identify run-on sentences.

See? I did that constructively without hinting that your inability to write well proves you are an idiot. Whoops.

“The real issue is whether Dan Slott represents Dan Slott or Marvel Comics/Disney.”

If it is the “real issue” (I don’t think it is, though), it’s one for Marvel to sort out, not us. I really don’t understand the hand-wringing by uninvolved parties as to whether the comments or actions of an independent contractor (e.g. Dan Slott) represent those of, or reflect poorly on, a multibillion-dollar corporation.

Wow. This is awesome. I’m going to have to start reading Slott’s ASM now – it can only get better after this!!

I’m with Slott on this one. While I can be critical of the creators of my favorite comics I would never presume to know what’s in their head and make such stupid remarks about them.

And this isn’t “doing schtick” you can’t go back and say ‘hey, I was kidding’ when his true intent and feeling was there in his initial post. He even admitted that it wasn’t a joke by adding “Yes I am laying it on heavy” to his initial post. This tells me he wasn’t joking about the intent of his post.

Bottom line for me though is here you have yet another one of those crybaby fans who are STILL complaining about Brand New Day, despite that fact that it was very entertaining and made Amazing Spider-Man enjoyable again, and will continue to complain about a book he probably doesn’t even read. This is something I’m sick of. Fans complaining about things they have no vested interest in. I read Amazing and I’ve loved it since Brand New Day. It’s fun and interesting again and I was fully ready to drop it if they brought the marriage back but I wouldn’t post complaint after complaint on the boards about it if they did.
I think we as fans need to lighten up a LOT and offer our criticisms in a realistic way and remember WE are the fans THEY are the ones who bust their asses to give us these worlds we love to play in.
Lighten up or collect stamps.

It’s clear the original poster didn’t know Dan. Shoot, he’s a poster online, of course he doesn’t know Dan. So I took his comment not as a personal attack so much as a critique of Dan’s work, i.e. Dan, man, I am not finding this title (or your work in general) a good read.

And on that count of the quality of the book I tend to agree. I know I’m an old whiner on this, but ever since One More Day I think Spidey’s sort of lost its way as a title. My opinion.

But I appreciate the madcap energy and inventiveness Dan brings. And I love the idea that Peter Parker finally embraces his intellectual gifts. Hope it pays off for the long haul; it’s a good idea.

As to Dan’s response, I think it’s a good window into how much he (and most of his peers) are invested in their work. And I have nothing but admiration for that.

Pitch for a new character for Spider-Man: The Crimson and Jade Kleenex (or, the Technicolor Kleenex). His superpower: truth bombs. His tagline: “Go #%@! yourself! Seriously. Go. #%@!. Yourself.”

I really think it has legs.

Cheers, interweb. Hang in there, Dan. Get well soon.

I met Dan very briefly back in 2004 at SDCC. He went out of his way to talk to me, for no reason other than to be friendly and kind, just because i was nearby. I was already a fan of his writing before the convention (I miss The Thing and She-Hulk!!) but for a creator just to come up and talk during a busy convention just because he could ,and on at least two occasions, was beyond nice.

Having been a life long Spider-Man fan, for almost 4 decades, i can see the fun and excitement Dan puts into his work. Read his Spider-Man/Human Torch mini-series. The respect for what has been done in the past AND acknowledgement of it is something many “hot” writers of today could learn by.

And let me say this, i am GLAD my favorite comic book is in his hands.

As for this internet issue, its over and done. Mr. Slott is allowed to be a human being, as well. My only wish is that he makes a speedy recovery(hope it isn’t serious…) and that you will be writing comics for many,many years to come.
Thanks for the good memories and the new ones, Mr. Slott.

Comic professionals have been regularly insulting their customers for over a decade. They use the excuse that readers are rude and nasty when they criticize but any kind of criticism is seen as insulting. And when a reader does criticize, many pros feel justified and entitled to sling insults because — how dare a reader criticize my work — you’re not a professional or a peer — your opinion means nothing! Of course, the fact that you paid for that creators work with your money seems to escape them.

What creators want is not criticism but worship. And when they don’t get worship but criticism instead, it is okay for them (and other readers to pile on) to tear down the customer with words like…

Nerd, whiner, complainer, fanboy, idiot, internet mouth breather, asshole, dummy, the intelligence of an 11 year old… etc.

Get it straight so called professionals: It is not cool to insult your paying customers, even if they are rude. Of course you can insult them, curse them and tell them to go F*** themselves. But then, don’t cry when you have trouble finding new readers. Because no reader, new or old wants to be insulted just because they didn’t like your work.

And they have every right not to like your work and express it. Companies pay billions of dollars to market research corporations every day to find out why customers did or did not like a certain product. These are companies that have customers in the millions and their product sells in the millions too, maybe that might be because other companies don’t regularly insult and curse out their customers for not liking a product — because they care about their customers, not like the tiny niche comic market who doesn’t… which might be a hint as to why no one wants to jump on the comic bandwaggon.

Why, so they can be regularly insulted and lobbed together with all the other nerds, fanboys and whiners (this coming from comics own professionals AND their own readers).

No self respecting individual with integrity would ever support an industry that insults and curses their readers. Of course, the comics industry does but they have it backwards and that’s why your market is continually shrinking, not expanding.

As someone who’s read nearly every interview and listened to every podcast with Dan since AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE was launched, this is the first time I ever seen him use profanity (even those guys on this one ‘cast couldn’t get him to say “knee fucker”).

So the comment must have really pissed him off to go off the way he did, and from the way it sounds, the GFY was well deserved.

@Kevin Melrose

“I really don’t understand the hand-wringing by uninvolved parties as to whether the comments or actions of an independent contractor (e.g. Dan Slott) represent those of, or reflect poorly on, a multibillion-dollar corporation.”

If I may, allow me to clarify a position.

Dan Slott creates Spiderman stories for Marvel Comics which is owned by Disney. Disney is a publicly traded company. Marvel Comics is the testing ground for commercial properties that exist in film, video games, cartoons, clothing and various other media and product placement. While the actual profit margins on the comics themselves are relatively small; the comics are the initial arena in which ideas can be tested for viability in other areas of financial opportunity. Essentially, Marvel Comics are “Research and Development” for the other, more profitabe areas of the company.

All employees (direct hires, independent contractors, etc.) of this publicly held entity (Disney/Marvel) are legally obliged not to engage in behaviour which falls outside the bounds of what the company feels is acceptable when representing the company. Please indulge me on this last point as I’m paraphrasing…

Dan Slott “the private person” is entitled to tell anyone anything he wants, just as the anonymous messageboard participant is obliged to say whatever they like (no matter how unqualified or irresponsible; that’s freedom). However, if Dan Slott engages in certain behavior, on his own time or otherwise, which the company feels reflects poorly on the companies interests– he can have that contract terminated. So, the issue (IMO) is really not about freedom of speech or what is justified in a particular instance. It’s about who do you represent and how do they feel about the matter.

I feel that the private individual Dan Slott was justified in what he said. I feel that the Marvel/Disney professional comic book writer Dan Slott responding with “Fuck You.” as a response to baseless criticism is, at best… imprudent.

I say this from a purely selfish perspective as I own shares of Disney (DIS). :-)

Of course, I’m keeping this matter in perspective ( comic readership and creatives engaging in low-brow personal banter is given more indulgence by the-powers-that-be than, or example, a Marvel merchandisng rep telling a potential buyer “Fuck You”); but, it still speaks to an overall tone that can be found off-putting. Further, the defense that “other people are doing it” is no defense at all.

If you are operating as a representative of the company (which he did in this instance with his username) and are not judicious in your responses– then you are undermining the company.

Who is the company? Stockholders, Developers, Sales Professionals , etc. and we are NOT uninvolved parties. :-)

Some interesting points. And all of you whining about this being an issue blown out of proportion, it’s not — it’s just a bunch of people having an interesting discussion.

I wonder…did we know how old ‘lejayjay’ is, the poster who started all of this? I don’t, and I doubt Slott does either — he could be 12, for all we know. Making the ‘Go F Yourself’ all the more unnecessary..

Slott was right to defend himself…but he did a poor job of it. Sick and tired or not (the ‘poor, downtrodden Spidey writer’ bit didn’t hold a lot of water with me), you’ve got to watch your words when dealing with customers, some of which are probably kids. And it’s not like kids don’t know how to access a message board these days..

I have to say I take Dan’s side on this. I, too, am a writer and I think the double standard is ridiculous.

Keep up the good work Dan.

Attack someone on the internet and you open yourself to getting attacked back.

Honestly, folks, this subject is as simple as that.

Comic fans tend to act like spoiled children when their personal preferences are – shock of shocks – not taken into account. Act snotty, then say, “Oh I was only joking!” *

*(Despite the fact I post crap like that all the time in all seriousness…)

Most MBers are congenial enough, even in complaining and criticizing. But the minority that can’t manage THAT level of respect get the most attention. The level of vitrol makes them stand out.

Which means comic pros have to ignore an increasing level of childishness in their *aging* readership, and put up with the petulant snottiness and over-entitlement that’s been commonplace in the last 10 years. I read MBs a lot less these days because I can’t believe how saturated the boards are by fans that are equally arrogant and out of touch.

Eventually, more and more pros are going to develop shorter fuses and put up with less crap. Or visit MBs a lot less, like I have. Which amounts to leaving the public pool to the kiddes that want to pee in it, due to whatever emotional issues they have.

It’s really sad. The solution is to expect everyone to act like grownups. Pros too; ideally there would be no need to tell a fan to go eff themselves. But incidents like this **one** incident are the result of having to put up wtih 9,999 shots. Everyone has a limit.

@Tony…

Glad you think the ‘private individual’ Slott is justified in telling a paying customer to F-off.

Since we’re here talking about ‘entitlement’ and how fans are not above it, neither are people who work in the comics industry. Just because you work in the comics industry, that does NOT mean you are ENTITLED to regularly condemn, insult or disregard your paying customers.

Everyone knows how comic professionals regard their customers: Whining fanboys — nerds, like that the guy Darryl said, a blanket statement about people (some who don’t even criticize!) who post on the internet — they’re just nerds. And they refer to their customers as nerds, complainers and idiots regularly, often in interviews without any provocation or criticism, as if to say, our audience and paying customers are comprised of nerds, fanboys and geeks.

Some of you don’t care if you are abused, insulted or put down — you’re used to it. You’ve been bullied and abused since you were in school so you don’t care — you’ll even go so far as to call your fellow readers nerds, fanboys and complainers yourself, because you think it makes you look cool like the pros who do it.

Pros don’t want to be abused, that goes likewise for your customers/readers — you know, the ones who you feel ENTITLED to call nerds and fanboys. But get this straight — this industry is lucky if there are 100k people still reading comics. There are over 1 trillion people in the world, most of them who don’t know you (Mr. Comic Pro) or even care about the silly comics you create — so put that it into perspective before you start believing you are ‘entitled’ to sling insults at your audience… just because you are a comic pro.

Courtesy and respect works both ways.

And next time you say Mr. Comic Pro was right to tell that customer to F*** off, who does he think he is with his fan entitlement, who does Mr. Comic Pro think he is, with his entitlement, that he has every right to tell his paying customers to F*** off… which he can…

But then don’t whine when your industry can’t gain readers.

“Everyone knows how comic professionals regard their customers: Whining fanboys — nerds, like that the guy Darryl said, a blanket statement about people (some who don’t even criticize!) who post on the internet — they’re just nerds. And they refer to their customers as nerds, complainers and idiots regularly, often in interviews without any provocation or criticism, as if to say, our audience and paying customers are comprised of nerds, fanboys and geeks.”

And you’re proving this assumption wrong…how, exactly?

“There are over 1 trillion people in the world”

Wow.

Are you a nerd, a fanboy or a geek?

I’m not and I don’t take kindly to people lumping me in a derogatory sterotype. Neither do other normal, self respecting people with dignity and integrity. I don’t live in a basement, nor am I ugly or an uberobsessed fan. I’m just a guy who ‘happened’ to read comics.

Maybe you’re proud to have people call you a nerd, a fanboy or a geek but I’m not, especially when its said in a non-flattering manner. And I’m not debating this point anymore.

If you all want to hurl insults at each other and be proud of it, go ahead.

I’m done.

This is one internet mouth breather that is finished. As far as I’m concerned, the comics industry is dead. I’ve turned my back on it. Time to move on to more positive horizons and that means leaving the toxic, rabid comic industry behind.

What a loss.

Dan Slott’s She-Hulk was so good that it gives him the right to tell anyone to go fuck themselves.

This is not an opinion, it’s the law.

Whoever was writing the Gorilla Grodd stuff was funny.

I can’t get over the fact, how many “fans” whine about Slott’s cussing, while they seem to think it’s perfectly allright for us, to insult the creators.
I have said harsh things about creators and if they responded equally I got what I deserved.
And the other way around.
Some creators have a condescending and irritating way of talking with or about the readers and they deserve to get similar response from us.

Basically a creator is only “people” like me and you, if you insult somebody, he may react likewise and rightly so.
Could creators simply turn the other cheek, yes and most of the time most of them do, still if they respond in kind, that’s fine by me as well.
It might be otherwise if Dan Slott worked as a spokesperson for Marvel or an exec, alas, he isn’t so it was perfectly all right for him to react this way.
Any other reaction is sanctimonious bullshit.

Chris,

What a loss?

Do you know how much money Andrew was pouring into the industry per year? Is the comics industry so rich that they can so casually afford to toss yet another reader away?

Because there are no new readers running in to replace the lost. People who work in the industry began regularly degrading and slandering their readers a long time ago. Whether justified or not, they began the sterotype that comics are for ‘freaks, geeks and nerds’.

Then when they get desperate for new readers, the industry wonders why regular folks don’t want to join the club. Who wants to join a group that gets off on insulting their own clientele? That goes for industry professional and fellow readers.

What a loss?

It will be a loss for you since you’re obviously still reading comics. Every time the industry loses readers, they raise the price on the remaining readers to pick up the slack for those who stop buying. And that comic you love that was just cancelled? Those readers you so casually toss, they could have been the ones helping to support that comic that needed support. THOR Mighty Avenger, anyone?

To the guys who support Mr. Slott for being abusive? Good for you, you must be proud.

How vile. The comics scene has become a rancid, degenerative cult and Andrew is right, only someone with no self repect or dignity would support an industry that regularly degrades their customers.

Count me out too.

You people are such a riot. I love how you think you can treat a creator like garbage and he has to scrub your balls with soap and water as a response or else it’s “abuse”. Losing sanctimonious tools like you and Andrew is a net gain if it means creators stop getting treated like content factories and start getting treated with respect.

Anyone else think Betty is Andrew? Count me in.

I’m trying to figure out if that would be more or less depressing.

Can we please stop calling comic book writers “Creators”? It’s arrogant when they refer to themselves as such, and just screams of having insecurities over what they actually are, AND it seriously comes off like they have a God complex when they go around thinking of themselves as such in front of the customers that they expect to bow before them. They are comic book writers!!!

Not in any other field does a writer working on a pre-existing concept or established property pompously go around calling himself a “creator”. A screenplay writer, whether it’s original work or not, isn’t too ashamed or too arrogant to call himself a screenplay writer. A writer of a TV series, unless he/she created it, like David E. Kelley or Aaron Sorkin, never go around making such claims of being a “creator” when they are only a hired gun writer.

It’s bad enough when a hack writer, who has no attention span and doesn’t adhere to deadlines, like Warren Ellis, is so embarrassed to be a comic book writer that he calls himself a “graphic novelists”, but this whole “creator” delusion of grandeur just adds to the serious problem of the wannabe celebrity comic book writers and editors talking down from on high to their customers.

As usual, the sheep flocked and fell in line with using the terminology without thinking of the implications. It takes no added effort for the word “writer” to be used, and it’s a hell of a lot more accurate when referring to people writing long ago created concepts and characters for Marvel and DC.

Dusty heeling it up.

So Dusty, on your Patented Pomposity Scale, is being called a creator more or less pompous than a basic desire to be treated with respect?

More importantly, if people want to say they have a slightly different job, who gives a shit?

I can say that because I’m not in comics

Dusty, I use the word “writer” when refering to writers specifically. I use the term “creator” in this discussion because it can encompass writers, pencillers, inkers, etc. It’s easier than saying “creative person that works in the comic book industry.”

Andrew, I think I missed the post where Dan Slott called anyone a nerd?

Seriously, I have trouble understanding some “fans.” You guys sound so angry and frustrated. Maybe I’m not a real fan, because I think it’s just comics and you can always pick a different comic when the current writer in the one you’re reading isn’t to your tastes?

It’s not like I think writers should be above criticism, it’s just that some fans seem to spend hours every day just complaining about the same things they hate again and again, and usually in a pretty rude manner (like, “Warren Ellis is a hack who has no attention span” a few posts above) and this kind of attitude seriously embarasses me (and other less passionate fans).

Obsessing so much and so continuosly and so loudly about something you hate seems unhealthy to me, and I resent the notion that creators (ops… I mean writers, artists, inkers, editors) must bend over backwards to accomodate such behaviour.

And I don’t see what anything in the discussion has to do with being a nerd. You’ll find this crazy behaviour among any fandom, even non-nerd ones.

Let it be known that writers don’t actually create anything because words already exist.


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