Robot 6

Another casualty of DC’s New 52: Amanda Waller’s weight

Amanda "the Wall" Waller in one of her earliest appearances (left) and in this week's Suicide Squad #1

While a lingerie-clad Harley Quinn received a lot of attention leading up to the Wednesday release of DC Comics’ Suicide Squad #1, the issue’s most radical makeover doesn’t appear on the cover. Instead it’s reserved for the final page, where readers discover that, post-Flashpoint, Amanda “the Wall” Waller is now thin and apparently significantly younger.

Since her introduction in 1986′s Legends #1, the tough-as-nails congressional aide turned Suicide Squad leader turned Checkmate’s White Queen has been depicted in comics as short and overweight, her size varying from artist to artist. Co-creator John Byrne tended to exaggerate Waller’s features, with her large frame supported by stiletto heels. In more recent years, she’s sported a slimmer look — although she’s never been “thin.”

Until Suicide Squad #1, by Adam Glass and Federico Dallocchio, Waller was one of the few prominent heavy-set characters in superhero comics. Rarer still, her weight wasn’t used for comic relief (like, say, Etta Candy in her earliest incarnations) or somehow connected to superpowers (as with Bouncing Boy, or Marvel’s Blob or Big Bertha). In a sea of ageless and impossibly thin and tall figures, Waller stood out as a squat, middle-aged force to be reckoned with.

Now, however, “the Wall” is young and svelte, like much of the DC Universe … and flashing a bit of New 52 cleavage.

You can see Waller’s unveiling after the break. But be warned: It contains spoilers for the end of Suicide Squad #1.

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Comments

201 Comments

not surprising, yet still disappointing. as much as i’m enjoying much of the new 52, harley’s new look kept me away from this comic, and now i have another reason to be glad i did.

GIve that woman a burger with all the trimmings. Although, I guess they shouldn’t glamourise obesity.

Repeat after me:

DC does not care about female characters.

DC does not care about female creators.

DC does not care about female readers.

Anyone who is surprised by this sort of thing has to have been living under a rock since, oh, 2003 or so.

Like @Joshua I kept from buying this because I hate Harley’s new look. I did flip through it quickly while at my comic book store, and yeah, not a decision I will regret.

As far as Waller’s new look, well like they say, sex sells. Sadly the only time any heavy person appears in comics nowadays is to portray the down and out homeless bum.

Oh well, such is life these days.

You can also see her nipple through her fucking shirt. There’s a difference between not glamorizing obesity and sexualizing everything for no fucking reason.

“NO FATTIES WILL EXIST IN THE REBOOT!!!”, I can picture Dan Didio yelling this and skipping through the halls @DC…

g, DON’T FEAR THE NIPPLE!!! :-P

we’ve all got ‘em…although why guys have them remains a mystery.

I guess on the DC universe’s earth there isn’t such a thing as obesity.

Marvel got rid of cigarettes & cigars ( Wolverine doesn’t smoke anymore even though he can’t get sick from it.), so DC decided to get rid of the fat.

So the Wall now is the Twig?

Shame. [sarcasm] But what about all those poor confused readers who only knew Barbara as Batgirl because of all the TV shows? How are they going to recognize this is Amanda Waller when the only Wall they ever saw was the DCAU one?[/sarcasm]

(Reminds me of a young Pam Greer she does. Give me back CCH Pounder!)

I think she was more daunting and effective as a bigger woman. Her expression does not match the line she just uttered. I read Adam Glass’s flashpoint mini and it was not good. Thats what kept me away from this book.

It’s three steps forward, one step back for DC all month long. For all the things they are getting right, there are just enough stupid things that make you wonder about the overall editorial strategy and skill.

A long time back, a columnist at Amazing Heroes magazine said that he wanted to see DC soar to new heights, but that it has an tendency to shoot itself in the foot with stunning regularity. 25 years laters, and that hasn’t changed a bit.

Wait, are we upset that an overweight character slimmed down? Are we so afraid of change that this bothers us? Like, if Amanda Waller was a real person and lost the weight, we’d all be happier for her healthier lifestyle choice, but because she’s in a comic, it’s somehow tragic. This is stupid.

“Appalling! …but we’ll keep on buying, because we can’t live without our fix!”

Repeat after me:

John Smith repeats the same tired claptrap in every post, imagining conspiracies where there are none and wears a tin foil hat.

Anyone who is surprised by this sort of thing has to have been living under a rock since, oh, he started posted the same thing on every article or so.

A black woman who once was a force to be reckoned with is now just there for T and A.

It reminds me of an episode of The OC where Rachel Bilson meets Colin Hanks who says he bought the rights to turn Golden Girls into a movie but he’s making them all “young and hot” instead.

Sad, DC, just sad.

So no link to the casting of Angela Basset as Waller in Green Lantern then?
Oh no
No. No nothing at all

she looks like Angela Bassett.. which would be fine if you know the GL movie did well

darn i liked amanda’s look for to me her plumpness showed that in the dc universe size or a persons appearance did not really matter but guess dc decided Amanda could be more marketable for other media with a make over. and maybe a change in size. and harley look still looks deranged.

So DC is prejudiced against fat people, eh?

Give us real people! That includes a percentage that are overweight, a percentage that are gay, and a percentage that are ignorant blockheads like whoever changed Amanda Waller.

I liked her old body size, she didnt give a shit that the pervy fanboys thought she should lose weight. Shes quite possibly the best new character of the DC universe from the 80s.

Seriously? How does the weight loss of a FICTIONAL character have any impact upon the quality of the story told within the actual comic? Did all you naysayers quit J.L.I when Ted Kord gained a few too many pounds? Did Giffen and co. become less talented due to that one character development? Did people love Ted any less? C’mon people, this is a ridiculous topic to debate.

Marco Rudy, huh? That’s funny.

This book knows how to ruin a good thing by trying to rope in the gamer crowd. First Harley and now Waller. so lame. Waller’s look helped make her such a stand out character, such a shame to see that go

the horror... the horror...

September 15, 2011 at 7:38 am

Frankly, I’m excited

(as well as delusional)

‘cause I’m seeing Waller start out as a collected and deliberate politician
who has paid close attention to her physical image
(’cause, you kinda have to do that in politics)

only to have the unpleasant responsibility of managing a team of
sociopathic
death row
supervillians
co-opted for wetwork
and crimes against humanity

take it’s toll

twelve issues in
we’re going to see the tragic effects
of substance abuse
and constant take out

damn shame though

Waller used to be a looker

This seems like a pretty blatant objectifying. Not every woman in DC needs to have a pornstar body.

Of all 13 books of ‘The 52′ that I put myself down for, this was the one that was the most iffy.

I LOVE Suicide Squad… but this looked… not good.

I am picking up the book on Saturday, but I have a feeling I won’t be buying #2. Too bad after a great first week from DC.

@The_Livewire: The Pam Greer of the 21st Century played Waller in Smallville…

who cares about her weight? so long as the character remains interesting

Is this really such a big deal? Does it really make that much difference what Waller’s weight is? I’d be much more upset if Waller was written as a weaker, less interesting character, and there’s not enough in this issue to worry about that yet. And despite Harley’s new costume, which I dislike, I thought Glass handled her character wonderfully here, which gives me hope he’ll do the same with Waller.

George Bush (not that one)

September 15, 2011 at 8:01 am

I hate comic fans.

I thought the hand wringing over Oracle was over-wrought, but his one is actually a real misstep on DC’s part.

Who cares that she lost weight? Really? From the issue, at her core, she is still the ruthless, stubborn, cut throat, takes no crap from anyone Amanda Waller, just younger and without the weight. OH THE HORROR.

Hey, hey, let’s all get angry that Gail Simone, YEARS AGO, changed Catman from a fat loser that no one took seriously into a strong, fit character who could go toe to toe with Batman! I mean hey, there must have been away to make him tough again without slimming him down, right?

Waller is still Waller, Hell, I thought people would be angrier she’s younger, not that she dropped the pounds. Internet fans are freaking hilarious. This is a non-story. READ THE BOOK. Flip through it at your LCS. She’s still Amanda Waller. She’s still tough as nails. She’s just lighter. Oh the horror…

Remember people, on the internet, it’s okay to say you want change, but don’t ever, EVER react well to it, especially when it’s a tiny cosmetic change.

@Sila Meek and all the other keeping a level head and some semblance of sanity, thanks. You’re the kind of fans comics need on the internet. People who seem to have a balanced view on things. You are rare.

Why isn’t anyone latching onto the obvious: they did it to make her resemble Angela Bassett…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lantern_(film)

Angela Bassett as Dr. Amanda Waller

Under Didio, DC is in the business of regurgitating what others do with their characters in other media. Original thought is no longer present. DC will either publish comics that pander to nostalgia for the past or imitate what TV, cartoons, and movies do with their characters

This is why The Wall is now skinny. More like The Twig.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Angela_Bassett,_Red_Dress_Collection_2007.jpg.

Notice how, in contrast, what Marvel does in their comics informs what happens in other media, which is why now Nick Fury is both black in the movies and the cartoons.

I’m *sarcasm* surprised *sarcasm* that DC didn’t make Perry White black given Fishburne’s casting.

A skinny Walker goes against the premise of the character on many levels. I’m not saying that she’s overweight or anything, but at least Grier embodied the part physically much better than Bassett does.

My posts are moderated?

The links caused the post to be flagged by the filter.

Waller’s weight issue isn’t nearly as big a deal to me as Babs being out of the wheelchair. I don’t remember when her weight was of any importance in the comics or any other medium, so why should it matter either way? I get that the use of heavier-set people in comics is usually power-based or comic relief, and Waller was not that at all, but as long as she’s still the same character it shouldn’t matter. As far as i know it’s not like heavier people looked up to her as inspiration or anything, unlike the disabled with Barbara.

Waller’s weight is part of the pun of her name. “Wall-er”. Her nickname, “The Wall” is based on her weight and her attitude, if you will. She’s a wall no one crossed (I’m sure that the notion of her nickname and apperance informed her last name, not the other way around).

The people who created her would know what their intentions were much better. I’m going to trust the creators over a bunch of fanboys-turned-writers who can’t create anything, just regurgitate what they see on TV and movies at he behest of their editor.

Thank you for the info on the ‘Other Wallers’ I never got into Smallville, and haven’t seen GL.

I will say it is a two way street. Marvel may be getting Ultimate Fury out there, but while I don’t expect WW II Bucky to suddenly be older than Steve, Wolverine has gotten taller and Tony Stark does look more like RDjr.

Still, I always find it funny the changes made when they’re crying for “Diversity!” (“Look, all our skinny hot bodied females come in different colours!”)

As to Catman, he wasn’t originally a Fat Loser, he was made that way in Green Arrow. Also the how and why of his ‘back to fighting trim’ look was explained several times. Now it’s “Flashpoint did it.”

Wonder what Roger Waters thinks about them ‘tearing down the wall’.

@Michael Sacal:

That seems more like justification for making her thin. Calling her “The Wall” because of her weight is just kind of mean, but if it’s because of her attitude then it’s great.

Oh and having looked…

Damn, Pam Grier is STILL hot!

This book was already bad enough as it was, and that last moment reveal was like a slap across the face on the way out. Unlike.

Right. Marvel never lets their movies dictate their comics. X-Men leather? Tony Stark now looking like Robert Downey? Bullseye? People need to stop talking in generalizations.

It’s a new DCU. Why are people surprised things are different? You know what I think when I see a middle aged woman over 200 lbs? She’s unhealthy!!!

You know what I think when I see a middle aged woman over 200 lbs? She’s unhealthy!!!

Definitely, DC should not be sending messages condoning unhealthy lifestyles.

So, no more characters over 35 from now on, then. We don’t want kids thinking that it’s okay to get old.

Apparently a lot of comic readers are offended by this, and completely fine with the stereotype of the fat angry black woman. Give me a break.

So losing weight turns black women into immoral mass murders. I would say “Stay classy, DC”, but they haven’t had any class in a long time.

@ The_Livewire: CCH Pounder as Waller. LOVE THIS.

Drop Bassett. MAKE THIS HAPPEN, WARNER.

Does Marvel have any women that dont look like supermodels? Yeah I really cant think of any either.

I’ll admit I haven’t read the book, but this seems like a bad choice. It’s not just the weight loss, it’s the weight loss plus the significant de-aging. The old Amanda Waller was the sort of character that didn’t have to say a word; you saw her in one panel (or for a second on the Justice League cartoons), and you knew this was a woman who absolutely did not take any crap from anyone. You probably even recognized that the other characters (and maybe the reader) are intimidated by her, and with good reason–she looks like she might be able to go a round or two against Superman. (Maybe that’s just me, but I always assumed she was sort of like the Kingpin, masking some serious muscles under the fat.)
Now, she’s eye candy, and is anything but intimidating (unless maybe you’re trying to ask her out on a date or something), and she does not look believable as the badass, take no **** Amanda Waller we’ve known for decades.

@Lioness

What are you talking about? Is Waller shown to be an “immoral mass murderer” in Suicide Squad #1? (I haven’t read it.) If you’re referring to the fact that she sends the team on a kill mission well . . . she’s been doing that for decades. Fat Amanda has plenty of blood on her hands.

@ Jonny

She voiced Waller in the DCAU. And yes, watch Warehouse 13, she’s perfect for Waller.

Apparently DC also holds that Marriage is bad, but kids out of wedlock are good. :P

@Kalorama, it looks like she’s ordering the death of 60k people. Thus the mass part.

Hmm, this is post 52, time for DC to reboot the thread!

“Apparently a lot of comic readers are offended by this, and completely fine with the stereotype of the fat angry black woman.”

..except that there’s no such stereotype in comics. Do some research, instead of typically brown-nosing to the corporation.

Task Force X got plenty of blood on Waller’s hands, but she had more brains than to send three goofball psychos to hack their way through 60,000 people. When similar occasions did occur, she used teleporters and infiltration experts.

@The_Livewire

Ditto on CCH Pounder as Waller — but Pam Grier was, indeed, great in “Smallville”!

Ditto II on baloney of DC getting rid of marriage, but OK’ing illegitimacy. I could have lived with Clark/Lois and Barry/Iris being no more if they had just GOTTEN RID OF DAMIEN WAYNE!!

I hate the idea of a slimmed-down Waller, but all jokes aside, I’d be curious to see what Michelle Obama thinks about this, given her anti-obesity campaign. Seriously.

wow. i cant believe this is even important. Is this the new “supergirl skirt” or “power girls costume” argument?

@nik

She’s not a real person, and her weight was part of her character. Do you want to see King Pin or the Blog slim down? How about the Scarecrow pork up?

First off, Waller didn’t “lose weight”. They totally changed her look to make her a model instead of a hard case like she was.
I liked the old Waller, she had presence and you could actually imagine her scaring the crap out of hardened criminals. This new one, the little we saw wasn’t scary at all. Time may tell but I don’t think I’m going to pick up any more issues to find out.

It’s true that this does not in any way prevent her from being an interesting, well-written character. She could be a he, she could be white, she could be ANYTHING, and still be a well-written character. In fact, she could be EXACTLY LIKE SHE WAS and still be an interesting, well-written character.

So why change her?

It’s not the end of the world. But it’s just one of those little things that kind of undermine the “diversity” of the New 52.

Can’t wait to see how DC re-packages Granny Goodness!

Not only have they slimmed her down, they’ve given her breast implants. Everyone knows that natural breasts don’t have creases at the top like that, right?

@wraith Thanks for playing by attempting to put words that weren’t there. I didn’t say lifestyle. I said middle age woman over 200lbs. Grow up.

I love how just because she’s slim, she suddenly can’t be an interesting, well written character. How can you even judge by this one small appearance? And if you now say she CAN be written as interesting, then all you’re complaining about is the design of the character.

Move on.

Well can’t say I saw this comin’, but can’t say I’m shocked either.

You know, I’m not a fan (at all) of slimming down and de-aging Waller, because it serves no good purpose. But if that was all they did, I could accept it, on the theory that they’re trying to make her look like Angela Bassett from the GL movie. But the thing is, aside from being thin, black, and female, she doesn’t look like Angela Bassett in the GL movie. There was nothing sexual about the character in the movie. That Waller had a professional, utilitarian look with her shirt buttoned up. The Waller they show in this comic is all about cleavage and red lip gloss, which really doesn’t mesh with the Amanda Waller character I’m familiar with. FAIL, DC. It’s not about the weight, it’s about reducing Waller, who was a really good, strong character, to being nothing more than yet another improbably huge pair of boobs.

These comments exemplify why us comic fans have a bad reputation. I hate to think how you all react to change in your real life. For those around you I hope that it’s better than this.

Joe, IRL I know many hard-nosed competent large women. If one of them were suddenly “replaced” by a skinny sex kitten who sent in an underpowered team with the wrong experts on it., you better believe I’d be giving their boss the hairy eyeball. Adults have to deal with similar fuck-ups all the time.

“My name is Foxy Cleopatra and I’m a WHOLE LOTTA WOMAN!!!”

So, the message that this is sending to me is, if I want to lose some weight, I need to have a time-travelling superhero’s mother murdered, which will do nothing, but when said hero tries to put time right I will devistate the Earth, and then when he tries to make time wrong again, I will magically be thin? Forget it. Too much work.

I think nik has a point. The fact that apparently this version of Waller knew how to cut calories isn’t all that terrible.

Now the fact that she’s young and gorgeous, well…THAT’S DC’s screw-up. They should’ve left her at around 40-50. But I was always kinda offended that the scariest thing in the DCU was a fat black woman. Yay, stereotypes.

If this is the only panel they caught her in, DC just needs to age her about twenty years and I’ll be happy.

I am returning to comics after 15 years, my 2 cents:

I don’t read comics to get a politically correct, affirmative action view of the world I get that from the news and the papers and every other form of media available. I look to comics for escapism. I don’t care if the people are fat, thin, black, white whatever… so long as the story is good. I really enjoyed suicide squad #1 and can’t believe how many opinions there are about a single frame about a single character that only rocked up on the last page… seriously, that’s what people base recommendations on these days…

I mean really, people are offended that she is thin and one guy even said she’s had breast implants?!? if that’s the case every guy in comics has been on steroids, has an impossibly low body fat percentage of 0.5% so we can see every single muscle and sinew… lets all boycott the guys with hulking bodies in favor of overweight “normal people”…

The comments on this page blow my mind… but anyways, enjoyed the book will be picking up number two and it has nothing to do with the lady on the last page…

My 2cents…

I love the comments that amount to, basically, “you’re being childish; quit lowering the level of discussion, you brainless pinhead. And you stink, too!”

So, you’d all be cool with them making Batman 60 lbs overweight?

@Carol

If they’re matching their other media, maybe GRanny will look more like Ed Asner?

I like my Walls made of brick, not straw.

They COULD make Perry White African American in the new DCU and it SHOULDN’T change the character in ANY way whatsoever except for what color the colorist uses to fill his skin in. Things CHANGE people. If it bugs you that much stop reading. But you won’t, this is your only joy in life. Crying about things 99% of people don’t even NOTICE.

If you put a wig on Ed Asner that IS what Granny Goodness looks like…..

Wow. You sound like a real winner there Archon.

@durkadurka – it IS kind of mean to nickname her The Wall because of her (former) weight but that’s what humans do to authority figures they have issues with but are afraid of: politicians probably have a lot more nicknames based out of derision than affection.

Weight is less of an issue for me than her apparent de-aging. The complexity of her original backstory is a little harder to swallow as she currently looks but, who knows? Maybe there’s an unseen tale about her surprising change in appearance: she once looked like the traditional Wall but through an as-yet unseen story she lost weight, got breast implants and a face lift. Actually, one of my co-workers did exactly all that, come to think of it, when her midlife crisis hit full-force. Or, maybe there’s a story in the future where she begins piling on the weight due to stress or other story reasons. Come to think of it, I did that, myself, when my midlife crisis hit.

@RAGGEDT:

Damien Wayne as a sign of illegitimacy? Do you know Damien’s origin? Bruce was basically raped by Talia, giving her and Ra’s the heir they always wanted. How is that similar to breaking up the marriages?

I don’t understand why Waller’s looks change the character at all, so why is this an issue? Maybe she got plastic surgery. Big freaking deal.

Wait, how do we know she’s older? Is it stated she’s in her 20′s or something? Or are you ASSUMING that from ONE PICTURE by one artist?

“I don’t care if the people are fat, thin, black, white whatever… so long as the story is good.”

Ok, then they should just draw stick figures.

Or, if it’s only the story you want, why read comics? Read regular novels. No illustrations at all.

And to the people that say others are complaining about her “losing” weight, she didn’t “lose” weight. She was re-born skinny. For no damn reason at all. She didn’t say “Hmmmm…..getting hefty…….Jenny Craig here I come!” It was DC wanting her as yet another sexpot. Waller being huge was her thing. It made her unique in the DC sea of bimbo women. Now, she’s just the same.

Yes, and Jason Todd was reborn with black hair again, should all the gingers be upset? My assumptions are that the only people who are upset about this are people who share Amanda’s former attributes.

This book is full of ugly writing and even uglier redesigns. Gotta hand it to DC for taking a unique character and crapping out another stock character. How Adam Gl(ass) got this job is beyond me. Didio must have been drunk.

@ durkadurka

How people are STILL misspelling Damian’s name is beyond me.

So what you are saying Scud, is that the only part of Amanda Waller’s character that was ‘unique’ was her weight? Not that she was 2 minorities(black-female)in one of, if not the TOP position of government in the DCU? Nope, she was just the fat black chick, right?

Dang it, others beat me to mentioning CCH Pounder — it’s almost like John Ostrander came forward in time, saw her on “The Shield” and “Warehouse 13,” then went back in time to create Waller. But while I see the Bassett resemblance, I also see a healthy bit of Tamara Taylor — Dr. Camille Saroyan from “Bones” and the Teacher from the opening sequence of “Serenity.”

And stereotyping? Here’s a character who by all rights, should be the object of contempt of most prejudicial people — she’s black, she’s a woman, and she’s very overweight. And instead, she’s one of the most respected and feared (mainly feared) non-supers in the DC universe. And all through sheer force of will.

Hmm… anyone wondering just what she would do with a Green Lantern ring?

J.

I don’t read comics to look at fat people. If i wanted to do that, I’d just go to walmart.

More like a sinestro (arkillo?) corps ring… lol

@Scud:

Darn, you are correct. I misspelled Damian’s name. But at least i didn’t draw Amanda Waller skinny, right? Bwahaha!

Being laid off from mid-November up until August, and the new father of nine month old (as of today!) twins, I haven’t seen the “Green Lantern” movie with Angela Bassett as Waller. Yet.
This seems to be opposite of what Marvel does, which is to essentially say: “Let’s second-guess how Hollywood will change / eff up our classic characters, their iconic costumes and time-proven stories, then show them how through the ‘Ultimates’ line, and then encourage them to do so!”.

My complaint is more than just Amanda losing weight. It is also that they took a powerful woman and put her in an outfit with a peekaboo bra. Amanda Waller was a woman that got what she wanted by steamrolling the opposition with the force of her personality, her intelligence, her deviousness and her ability to manipulate politicians, situations, villians and heroes.

For those of you that say, realistically, she glamorized obesity and a realistic woman of her size should have been dieting…realistically, no woman that shows off her bra regularly and is a sex-pot is going to be the head of a heavy duty government organization. You don’t see diplomats, politicians, CEO’s, etc showing off T&A and being taken seriously. In addition, since Batman, Colrnol Flag, Bronze Tiger and Deadshot have never had to use their looks to get what they want, why does Amanda who has, at various times, gotten into arguements with each of these men, got in their face and forced them to back down?

That’s my complaint. Amanda Waller was the one strong female character in comics that never had to flirt or play on her looks to get what she wanted. She got what she wanted through pure personal strength. Now, she’s just the same as all the other female characters. The changed what made her unique and there was no reason for it. It would be like making Superman into a 5’4 120 pound skinny person or making Batman as big and muscular as Bane…it’s just not necessary and would change the character in fundamental ways…such as an overly muscled Batman would not really be able to do the acrobatics he does, would he?

Who would ‘they’ be? All of DC? Or just the writer/artist? Or just the artist? But you’re right!!!! I am OFFENDED!!!! Even though I am basing this off of ONE PANEL I am OFFENDED!!!!! How DARE they make her flirt her way through problems?!?!?!? Waitaminute…… when’d they do that? Oh that’s RIGHT they DIDN’T!!!!!!

Hey I just realized they made Jim Gordon young and vital again. What RUBBISH!!!! Now instead of using his brains and credentials he’s just going to beat his way through Gotham!!! (see how silly that looks)

To Joe,

Thank you for the flames. It’s so nice to see that you read my post so shallowly. I appreciate you not actually acknowledging the basis of my complaint. After all, I’m sure a woman that’s flashing her cleavage couldn’t possibly be assumed to be using her looks to get her way. I mean, I walk into a bank and see cleavage just right and left, don’t you?

As for Jim Gordan being unable to use his brain and credentials becaue he’s young and vital? Excuse me, but young and vital doesn’t mean stupid. You can use your brain just fine no matter the age.

I just miss there being one woman in comicdom that didn’t feel the need to flash her cleavage around and before you start on me about that, if flashing skin is so acceptable why doesn’t Superman with his invulnerable skin ever go shirtless?

You probably don’t realize how silly that argument looks. Superman has been wearing skintight outfits that let you know exactly what his body looks like since he debuted. He is shirtless in his FIRST APPEARANCE when they explain needles can’t pierce his skin. Next?

Where is she topless again? Oh right she isn’t. She’s wearing a BLOUSE!!! Not even a skintight leather outfit or ANYTHING like that.

@Jay

“Hmm… anyone wondering just what she would do with a Green Lantern ring?”

Hmm, likely collect the whole rainbow set and take over Oa.

“Nekron! Polish my boots! And get me a burger when you’re done!”

@delilah, thank you for making the points your way. I’m in 100% agreement.

Skin tight? Since when? Have you ever noticed how much it bunches over the crotch? Oh and you’re so right that one scene in his first appearance is such a huge percentage of his YEARS of existance.

And I still stand by my arguement. Why does Mr. Invulnerable wear a costume that covers everythign but his face and hands while Harley (currently), Huntress, Black Canary and a host of other women who have no powers other than a sonic scream show off more skin than Superman, Batman and Green Lantern combined?

I’ve got no problem with cheesecake, by the way, I just want a fair amount of beefcake and by beefcake, I mean real beefcake of attractively drawn men in provocative outfits…same as you get with the cheesecake.

@The_Livewire

The Wall with a green lantern ring? You know thought just terrifies me. You’re right she’d kick butt and take over.

@Joe

And I never said she was topless but diffence in modesty standard means

women showing lots of cleavage = man without a shirt

For the same reason you see the men solving their problems with their fists and powers instead of with their brains and civility. It’s ENTERTAINMENT.

Skintight in EVERY issue he’s ever been in. If you colored his outfit flesh intead of bleu you’d think the S symbol was a tattoo….. If you argue against that than I am going to stop because you just do not know what you are talking about.

For the same reason Lady gaga is half nude every time you see her, but Adam Levine is fully clothed you see him. Things are DIFFERENT for boys and girls. I’m sure deeo down you know that but just enjoy crying.

Robin(Dick Grayson) wore hot pants and PIXIE BOOTS well into his adulthood so there is precedence the other way. And EVERY supeehero is drawn as if their costume is MELDED to their body.

Buddy Baker is topless on the cover of Animal man #1 as well FYI……

Oh, and BS on your cleavage=shirtless. Next time you go to the mall(or wherever young people gather where you live) and count how many girls are showing cleavage compared to how many of the men are shirtless….. It will be 143-0 I believe.

Animal #1 you say? Hmmm, went over and looked…ooohh real sexy with all those tendrils covering him and enterign him and him hanging from it all half dead, oooh yeah that’s the beefcake I was looking for…NOT!! Shirtless animal man cover as beefcake = Fail This pretty much shows that you’re really not wantign to show what you’re talking about. You want to compare a cover of a man being half dead and tortured to a hot woman grinning out of the panel with a smirk?

And, again, for skin tight on Superman…I went and took another look at the covers, just for you…You know I’ve never seen a man that damn flat down there. Guess we don’t ever have to worry about any baby supermen running aroudn as in…ever…unless of course the costuem isn’t actually skin tight, just smooth and form fitting. hmmm?

You must think men run around fully erect at all times. How old are you?

Why isn’t anyone upset that male heroes all have amazing muscles, tremendous manes of flowing hair and lantern jaws?

Oh so if it’s covered in gore than we can start having topless chicks all over the place without it being sexist?

You keep changing the equation.

EXACTLY Lancaster.

Victim issues I guess. Whenever I tried to give her EVIDENCE of the things she says don’t exist, she changes the parameters of what she says.

@Lancaster

Actually not all the male heroes do have that…Examples of popular male heroes that do not have tremendound manes of flowign hari, amazign muscles, etc — Professor X, Magneto, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Rag Doll (though whether he’s a hero is debatable, of course), Maritan Manhunter, Hank Pym to name a few.

I’m not objecting to beautiful heroines. I am just objecting to the unnecessary change to Amanda Waller. I would object the same way if they decided to start drawing Superman like Jimmy Olson’s twin or Batman like a sumo wrestler.

@Joe

No, I’m not changing the equation. I am stating that the reason that the female heroines are drawn in the costumes they are is to be cheesecake. That’s fine. However, I would like to have an equal amount of beefcake being shown off in my comic books and I don’t get it. The male heroes, in general, do not show the skin, dress as provocatively or pose as nicely as the heroines.

I stated I would like to see more heroes showing skin in the way that Huntress, Black Canary, etc, show skin. You are the one that brought in Animal Man #1 as an example of fairnes, not me. I was discussing the amounts of beefcake and cheesecake available.

I will also point out that you changed the equation by comparing to the number of women showing cleavage to topless men in the malls to my statement of what men and women wear into battle. If you were to go onto any military base and looked at the on-duty men and women, you wouldn’t see topless men and you wouldn’t see cleavage either one.

As for my statement about what is down there, unless he is tucking, a man wearing a skin tight outfit is going to show something down there.

Though you never did answer my question…would you you have such a “oh it’s not a big change” attitude if Superman were drawn like Jimmy Olson or if he was being drawn like Ragdoll or if Batman was being drawn as a sumo wrestler? Both of those changes would be unnecessary but would require a fundamental change in their characters simply based on appearance.

>>No, I’m not changing the equation. I am stating that the reason that the female heroines are drawn in the costumes they are is to be cheesecake. That’s fine. However, I would like to have an equal amount of beefcake being shown off in my comic books and I don’t get it. The male heroes, in general, do not show the skin, dress as provocatively or pose as nicely as the heroines.

You are just wrong on this. The men are drawn just as ‘beefcakey’ as the women. Unless you can point to the overweight bald and weak hero that everyone loves? You just choose not to see it.

>>I stated I would like to see more heroes showing skin in the way that Huntress, Black Canary, etc, show skin. You are the one that brought in Animal Man #1 as an example of fairnes, not me. I was discussing the amounts of beefcake and cheesecake available.

I never said it was equal. I just pointed out there was a topless man on the cover of one of the new 52′s. You said that male toplessness wasn’t to be found. I merely pointed out that it was.

>>I will also point out that you changed the equation by comparing to the number of women showing cleavage to topless men in the malls to my statement of what men and women wear into battle. If you were to go onto any military base and looked at the on-duty men and women, you wouldn’t see topless men and you wouldn’t see cleavage either one.

And in what military comic are they showing the female soldiers topless or close to it? This is what I mean by changing the equation. My mall comment was directly born form you comparing how many cleavage comic characters there are to male, and I am just saying it’s a parallel of REAL life. Men don’t go around showing their cleavage or go around topless in real life so wht would you see it in a comic? Women however…..

>>As for my statement about what is down there, unless he is tucking, a man wearing a skin tight outfit is going to show something down there.

You watch much football? How much junk have you EVER been able to make out? Skintight pants. No bulging penises. Do you really think men are going to go into battle with the ‘boys’ protected?

>>Though you never did answer my question…would you you have such a “oh it’s not a big change” attitude if Superman were drawn like Jimmy Olson or if he was being drawn like Ragdoll or if Batman was being drawn as a sumo wrestler? Both of those changes would be unnecessary but would require a fundamental change in their characters simply based on appearance.

Superman’s appearance has been changed pretty drastically. As a 37 year old I am not hurt that they’ve made him 10 years younger(ok maybe my ego is a BIT). They changed Jason Todd to a balding redhead for about 6 months and whereas I didn’t LIKE it I surely didn’t WHINE about it. I’m a grown ass man. If I hated that much I’d have quit buying the story(but guess what, I didn’t) I accepted the writer’s decisions and forged ahead.

“You are just wrong on this. The men are drawn just as ‘beefcakey’ as the women. Unless you can point to the overweight bald and weak hero that everyone loves? You just choose not to see it.”

Did you miss my list with Professor X and Ted Kord? Now who’s ignoring examples?

“I never said it was equal. I just pointed out there was a topless man on the cover of one of the new 52′s. You said that male toplessness wasn’t to be found. I merely pointed out that it was.”

I never said it wasn’t to be found. I have some wonderful Bird of Prey and Secret Six issues with some very nice panels of Catman and Creote topless. (Kudos to that artist by the way. He does great women and men both.)

“And in what military comic are they showing the female soldiers topless or close to it? This is what I mean by changing the equation. My mall comment was directly born form you comparing how many cleavage comic characters there are to male, and I am just saying it’s a parallel of REAL life. Men don’t go around showing their cleavage or go around topless in real life so wht would you see it in a comic? Women however…..”

Comic book characters wear their costumes to go into battle, not to go shopping so therefore, my parallel to a military base is more appropriate than you mall parallel, but if you’d like another parallel, have you seen MMA recently? There you see a lot more topless guys than you see cleavage even taking into account the greater number of male mma fighters than female mma fighters.

“You watch much football? How much junk have you EVER been able to make out? Skintight pants. No bulging penises. Do you really think men are going to go into battle with the ‘boys’ protected?”

Fine they’re wearing a cup but I’ll give you that but a cup isn’t flat like the Superman outfit. There’s still a bulge. Go compare a couple of pictures of football players with the superman picture. There is a definite difference. Sorry but there is.

“Superman’s appearance has been changed pretty drastically. As a 37 year old I am not hurt that they’ve made him 10 years younger(ok maybe my ego is a BIT). They changed Jason Todd to a balding redhead for about 6 months and whereas I didn’t LIKE it If I hated that much I’d have quit buying the story(but guess what, I didn’t) I accepted the writer’s decisions and forged ahead.”

As I pointed out before, changing a character’s age does not necessarily have any effect on a character’s preferred modus operendi. Hair color doesn’t affect anything. However, do you really believe that Batman would be the same character in any way if he were to be drawn as a sumo wrestler? Would Superman still be the boy scout if he was born as skinny and creepy as Rag Doll? With Waller, we’re not talking about something as minor as age or hair color. We are talking about a completely different body build. So, again, would you take it in stride and say it’s not really a change to the character if Superman were suddenly a creepy 90 pound guy like Rag Doll or if Batman were suddenly a large massive sumo wrestler?

Oh and by the way, I’m not buying the story because I do object to what they’ve done but unless people speak up, DC won’t know why people aren’t buying a comic book. The only way to see a change is to speak up. If businesses don’t hear what the customers want, then they can’t produce it.

As for whining, ummm you constantly telling all of us that don’t like the change that we’re obviously ‘victims’ is whining. It’s whining that people have a different opinion.

That being said, I’m done with this conversation. I have some things I need to do for my business.

It’s about time! Lithe, sexy ladies finally have a representation in mainstream comics! Goodbye glass ceiling!

>>>Did you miss my list with Professor X and Ted Kord? Now who’s ignoring examples

When has Professor X EVER been described as someone who naturally lost his hair? How many Proffessor X by himself comics have sold well? How long was ted fat? One story arc? Maybe 2? He also wasn’t CREATED that way.

>>I never said it wasn’t to be found. I have some wonderful Bird of Prey and Secret Six issues with some very nice panels of Catman and Creote topless. (Kudos to that artist by the way. He does great women and men both.)

Were you upset they made Catman thin? Would you have enjoyed those panels as much if it was the Green Arrow version of the villain? Hypocrite.

>>Comic book characters wear their costumes to go into battle, not to go shopping so therefore, my parallel to a military base is more appropriate than you mall parallel, but if you’d like another parallel, have you seen MMA recently? There you see a lot more topless guys than you see cleavage even taking into account the greater number of male mma fighters than female mma fighters.

Actually comic character wear their costumes to PROTECT THEIR IDENTITIES. Ever notice how many more female make up sellers at the mall than men? Same difference as the MMA. Believe it or not men and womwn aanren’t equal at EVERYTHING. Somethings are still more male or female based than the other. (not that the other genders can’t be interested). Hell one might say tht the female fighters are for the men just as much as the male fighters are. It’s not because of some GRAND interest in MMA by women….. IMHO

>>Fine they’re wearing a cup but I’ll give you that but a cup isn’t flat like the Superman outfit. There’s still a bulge. Go compare a couple of pictures of football players with the superman picture. There is a definite difference. Sorry but there is.

Your “superman’s groin is always flat”argument is just stupid. Sorry, but there it is.

>>As I pointed out before, changing a character’s age does not necessarily have any effect on a character’s preferred modus operendi. Hair color doesn’t affect anything. However, do you really believe that Batman would be the same character in any way if he were to be drawn as a sumo wrestler? Would Superman still be the boy scout if he was born as skinny and creepy as Rag Doll? With Waller, we’re not talking about something as minor as age or hair color. We are talking about a completely different body build. So, again, would you take it in stride and say it’s not really a change to the character if Superman were suddenly a creepy 90 pound guy like Rag Doll or if Batman were suddenly a large massive sumo wrestler?

There are TONS of things I could do at 25 that would be kinda difficult for me at 37. It’s just depends on what’s imprtant to you. Jason Todd is prolly my favorite character, so his balding redhead look bothered me GREATLY. Batman and Superman are A list characters. Waller is C level, if that. Her change isn’t as iconic as if they did that to superman and batman.

>>>Oh and by the way, I’m not buying the story because I do object to what they’ve done but unless people speak up, DC won’t know why people aren’t buying a comic book. The only way to see a change is to speak up. If businesses don’t hear what the customers want, then they can’t produce it.

Huh? When did I say you weren’t entitled to your opinion? I’m just showing the GLARING holes in your logic.

>>As for whining, ummm you constantly telling all of us that don’t like the change that we’re obviously ‘victims’ is whining. It’s whining that people have a different opinion.

See above

>>That being said, I’m done with this conversation. I have some things I need to do for my business.

Of course you are. You have nothing to stand on. You have a nice day. i hope that you haven’t been ignoring your work to discuss this…. lol

Also, whine all you want but the only thing they look at are sales. That is the only criticism that really affects them.

For everyone saying Marvel would not or does not do this I direct your attention to Blade. The character was drastically changed to look more like Wesley Snipes after the movie released.

The change in her looks is not a big deal as long as she is still Amanda Waller. Nothing in this issue says she isn’t the same badass we all remember. Just because she is thin and pretty doesn’t mean she isn’t smart, manipulative, ruthless, and intimidating.

THANK you!!!!

Oh, so a young Amanda Waller isn’t obese? Well let’s all just organize another useless boycott at the next Con.

Guess who else wasn’t a fat slob when she was young: Granny Goodness.

I do have an issue with this, but its not strictly to do with Waller herself. Essentially in my view, comics have very few strong characters who aren’t young and attractive, and therefore making one of the few exceptions to that into a young attractive person is not only further diminishing the range of characters present, but its also just generally such an inane thing to do. Do we really need that one more generic attractive woman that desperatly? If comics had the full range of ages and bodytypes (and races, and disabilities, and sexual orientations for that matter) then, loosing one either way isn’t that big an issue, but as thats not the case, this just comes off as insulting to peoples intelligence.

I can’t believe some of the guys here have something against sexpot women who can have you and your family buried in concrete with a wink. See, THAT’S Amanda Waller.

Of course, if DC wanted to have their cake and eat it too, they could say that thin Waller is overweight Waller’s daughter.

I’m sure pre Didio that would have been the choice Carlin would have made.

Now, having not read the comic, are we sure this black woman is Waller, or are we assuming she’s Waller because she’s black?

Further, we all remember Fat Lex Luthor, right? He got thin after he cloned himself and subsequently made a deal with Neron that restored his helth (BR, Secret Origin, and all the other crap DIDN’T do it).

I’m all for characters losing/ gaining weight. I thought the old Ted Kord story arc with him getting out of shape and then working to trim down again was refreshing and original. Instead of doing something like that, they’ve changed the character from a savvy and dangerous bureaucrat to another cliched 20-something sex symbol. CD’s New 52 = 90s Marvel. All flash, no substance.

I don’t mind that she isn’t fat, specifically. What I do mind is that they felt they had to change the one powerful female character who ISN’T a) pretty b) young c) sexy into one who is. Before the reboot I could always refer to Amanda Waller when talking about sexy supermodel women in cape comics and say “Well at least she isn’t!”. Not so anymore.

And the thing about Amanda was that because she was not pretty, young or sexy, you knew that she didn’t use her looks or sexiness to get where she was – it was all her strength, intelligence and ruthlessness, and she frickin’ made it even when all odds were against. It gave the message that you don’t have to be a busty young bombshell to get something done and to be powerful.
Welp, there goes that message. Now she’s just another sexy babe among hundreds of other sexy babes. Even if she’s written well, her appearance was such a huge part of her character that it won’t be the same.
And for those about to chime in “Duh, of course it’s not the same, it wouldn’t be a reboot if it were!”…well, I just don’t think that a bad change is better than no change. If it’s not broken, don’t fix it.

Were you just as upset when Angela bassett was cast as her? Things that happen in wider(no pun intended) media ALWAYS come back to stay in comic cannon. From The Daily PLANET(not Star) to Kryptonite, to Jimmy Olsen, hell even Chloe Sullivan has been brought in. Not just Superman. If that wasn’t the case we would have no Harley Quinn either. It’s called an open mind. It is MOST of comic fandom’s biggest weakness. The inability to cope with the inevitable change that is coming.

It is a different reality and who knows it could flashback at anytime!!!!! I like Harley’s look but had a thing for a bigger and curvier Waller!!!!!! DC I hope it doesn’t last!!!!!

TY GreenArrow or a RATIONAL response. See how easy it is to just say you don’t like it and hope it changes instead of making false statements like it’s never happened before, or only because it’s a woman(all proven wrong btw).

oh yes, a svelte hard nose b*i#ch…never seen one of those in comics before…..or seeing female villians prance around in thier underwear

seriously, did the creative team time travel back to 1992 or something? I’d swear this looks like something Liefield or Claremont would come up with

DC’s committed to diversity,

Unless you’re married or fat.

They’re trying to sell to kids. How many kids do you know that are married? How many boys do you know of that fantasize about being married?

Remember that Superman comic where we all couldn’t WAIT for him to be done so he could go home and have a nice dinner with his wife?? Exactly.

Out of curiosity are you married and fat? Just curious. (before you flame me, I am married with a few extra pounds)

Remember that Superman comic where we all couldn’t WAIT for him to be done so he could go home and have a nice dinner with his wife??

Yep. It was that stupid walkabout he took last year, and Lois fixed the problem in three panels over the first course.

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3247171.html

If only he’d talked to her sooner, we could have had some better stories during that time.

Hey, you’re right!!! We were so ready for that to be done that DC rebooted the whole character. Take THAT J Michael!!!!

DC has rebooted three times over the past two years. Or is it four times? I’m not a hardened enough fan to have kept count, but I do know that many reboots is a sure sign they don’t know what they’re doing.

Um. This is the 2nd in 6 years if that’s what you mean. Comics reboot itself all the time. Sometimes it’s single character reboots(Brand new day) or company wide like DC likes to do. If that bothers you the only thing you can do to protect yourself is to quit reading comics….

Joe, while nobody on the guy-appreciating end of the spectrum will deny that quite a few male superheroes are good-lookin’, they’re not /presented/ as “sexy” nearly as often as the women are.

Compare the men on superhero comic covers to the men on the cover of, say, a yaoi manga. They’re both (some person’s idea of) handsome, but the superhero guys are presented as /power/ objects, not /sexy/ objects like the yaoi guys.

Heroines with ample proportions and form-fitting outfits are great (though it is kind of annoying when they’re the /only/ types of heroines around.) The sticking point is how those perfectly-fine women are presented primarily as being, well “perfectly fine,” in ways that the heroes very, very rarely are.

I say, either tone down the sexification of female characters . . . or pump up the sexification of the male ones! If nothing else, it’d be a fun nod to the straight ladies, gay gents, and bi and pan ladies and gents who read DC. x[)

Joe, I’ve quit reading comics before for 15 years. At some time I’ll probably quit again. The pertinent question is, why is DC driving me away?

The other pertinent question is, why don’t they want my children to read DC? These days there’s no kid-friendly venue to discover comics. The only way they find out about them is through me, and this lack of diversity isn’t selling DC to either me or through me to them.

No offense Angelica but that’s BS. All(majority) male heroes are incredibly fit with full heads of hair, and tremendous power that they never abuse. What is more sexy than unbridled power? Sexy for men and women are different. A woman’s sexiness is usually 100% physically derived. Men are visual creatures. A man’s sexiness is his power

Hawkman has pranced around topless for 70 years but I don’t think there’s any man or woman crying about his exposure as somehow demeaning. The differences in how men and women are represented in comics is parallel to how they are represented in life and media. If you have problems with that you problem is with the society that comics mimic.

>>Joe, I’ve quit reading comics before for 15 years. At some time I’ll probably quit again. The pertinent question is, why is DC driving me away?

What is driving you away? Simplification of 70 years of history?

>>The other pertinent question is, why don’t they want my children to read DC? These days there’s no kid-friendly venue to discover comics. The only way they find out about them is through me, and this lack of diversity isn’t selling DC to either me or through me to them.

Um DC sells their comics in grocery stores and Toys R Us’ around the country. Maybe you should let your kids out more often. :)

@Lioness:

“These days there’s no kid-friendly venue to discover comics.”

sure there are, there have been a whole heap. An i can predict with 100% accuracy that as soon as the reboot sinks in we’ll see more kid friendly titles again.

“this lack of diversity isn’t selling DC to either me or through me to them.”

Actually DC has a ship load of diversity… Its just that its not your preferred sort of diversity… An all i can say to that is tough cookies.

@Joe: “What is driving you away? Simplification of 70 years of history?”

“Simplification” is like “Change” Joe… If its not accompanied by improvement its not worth the paper its written on.

The fact that you can read any of these comics without having to know what has been published for the last 20 years IS improvement, and I HAVE been reading the last 20 years.

When I started reading you didn’t need to know the past either. If something in the past affected the current story they would do an editor’s box with the issue so you could go read it, but enough was given to you IN the story to understand the story .

You’re joking. I haven’t seen a comics stand inside a grocery story in 25 years, I’ve never seen one inside Toys ‘R Us ever, and the nearest bookstore is an hour away. Welcome to the goddamn 21st Century.

With some continuity it’s like starting a Master’s course in college before having the undergraduate degree.

They are in the same aisle as the comic book action figures. In every one in the US. Comics in the aisle the magazines are in. You just aren’t looking,

Joe, you must not hang around female fans much. They have all sorts of different notions of sexy. Some like muscles, some don’t. Some like scruff, some go crazy for a sharp dressed men. Some like brains, some like them big n’ stupid. The notion that there’s only one stereotype that appeals to women is a recipe for shooting a title in the foot.

“You’re joking. I haven’t seen a comics stand inside a grocery story in 25 years”

an i haven’t seen porn sold in a church, but that doesn’t mean that porn doesn’t exist. Comics targetted at kids do exist “These days there’s no kid-friendly venue to discover comics.” News agents, delis, service stations, toy stores & book stores all possess comic book areas (or atleast they usually do). An then there are those stores that exist, where comics are sold… Comic Shops.

” and the nearest bookstore is an hour away. Welcome to the goddamn 21st Century”

Atleast you have a book store near you. Try living in the country, away from a civilization hub & i promise you those rural areas existed long before civilized areas did & long before the 21st century. So take of the rose coloured glasses that make the past look so darn rosy & be realistic.

It is arguments like these that make me question why I visit the comments section. In the grand scheme of things this is ubsurd. Buy the comics you like and read and enjoy them. Don’t chime in if you have not read the book. All this bickering makes all comic fans look juvenile.

I noticed that nowhere on your ‘what women like’ list was scantily clad men. Point proven. Thank you very much.

It’s the same reason Hooters and female strip clubs are so profitable but not the other way around. We(men and women) process things different.

DC comics is now a full on testing ground for the film and TV division at Warner Bros. This re launch was nothing more then a way to get all you fans to not flinch at the changes these characters are going to get in the up coming film projects. Just wait until that Hip new Justice League movie and Superman with no trunks hit the screen. You aren’t a comic book company just another R & D department.

Joe: oh joe, no, no. Never do that… Ever. “what women like” lists are stupid, because there is no such thing as “what women like.” Its like having a list called “what men like” that includes beer, televised sports & public belching contests… I enjoy none of those things because i’m not “a man,” i’m an indivdual that just happens to be male.

Oh BS Fred. Jimmy Olson and Kryptonite were thought up by the superman radio show. The things that other media versions of our comics come up with have a knack for sticking around. Harley Quinn anyone?

Yes. Yes there are. How about naked boobs? You like them? How about cars?

Joes, right on that one. The idea for Batman Inc came from that Batclub, which was drawn from the Batman Radio Play. Other mediums are always crossing over to comics, including Harley Quinn.

There is something on the ‘typical male’ list that fits you no matter how bad you may think you are above it…..

@Joe: “How about cars?”

not a great fan of cars. They are a convenience.

As for boobs, who doesn’t love boobs. Even girls love boobs. :)

“There is something on the ‘typical male’ list that fits you no matter how bad you may think you are above it”

A thing is not the same as all things. There will also be A thing on the “typical female” list that will fit you too.

Didn’t you just do what you told me not to do by saying what girls like? I know plenty of women who hate boobs. There’s and other’s.

Nah they secretly love boobs Joe… Boobs have hypnotic powers, that make them be loved… Damn symbiotic creatures that boobs are.

Only to the sex that wants them, so to bi’s lesbians and men, yes. For straight women, no.

Nope Joe, the hypnotic powers of boobs effect even women… Its kind of like a train wreck… everyone wants to stop and watch. You can’t fight the hypnotic boobs powers, you may as well just give in :D

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/07/14/toys-r-us-to-sell-comic-books-some-of-them/

Maybe in the big cities but it hasn’t happened around here. Not that it matters much, since it’s even further away than the bookstore and almost as far away as the comics shop.

I noticed that nowhere on your ‘what women like’ list was scantily clad men. Point proven. Thank you very much.

I also didn’t include beards, bears, or bisexuals (among others); but my folder full of Colleen Doran scantily clad male pinups proves you wrong.

Lioness: so your issue isn’t that people can’t get comics for kids in a kid friendly location so much as YOU can’t get comics for kids in a kid friendly location. Thats not really something that DC can fix though, is it.

My town has 35,000 people in Iowa. I promise you if you go to Toys R Us there will be comics in the action figure aisle. I promise.

Your collection doesn’t prove me wrong. But answer me this. Do the photos look like they were made for you or for maybe gay men?

Woops, I just looked that up Colleen Doran’s a gore artist so I’m WAY confused…..

Yeah Lioness it’s too bad you can’t buy comics on the internet… Oh waitaminute!!!!!!

Wowser, i just had an idea…. A vending machine you can buy comics from. How is it we’ve never done that before? Um… patent pending.

You ever buy a comic you coldn’t flip through the first few pages of?

People, you know she’ll be fat again someday. You know you get more weight as you get older.

It would be more for impulse buyers: Perfect for airports, bus terminals, big shopping centres, that kind of thing. Its only invested comic book fans who feel the need to do the flick through. Parents who want something to shut up there kids on long trips would just chuck in a coin. Kind of like those old sealed polybagged collections of second printings we used to get in the late 80′s & early 90′s. where you could get like 5 comics for $3

An of course we can have a different machine for new comics, since invested readers don’t really flick through, they purchase the titles they know they are going to purchase.

It wouldn’t replace the comic shop, but would instead supplement the industry. Plus it would place comics in the immediate public eye, especially of young kids

You ARE thinking this through…… Just surprised boobs hasn’t slipped in somewhere.. ;)

A boob vending machine mayhap?

To Lioness and others posting on here,

I have one piece of advice…Ignore Joe.

He’s a troller. He won’t actually read your posts but he’ll twist what you say, make false claims, claim to present evidence and ignore evidence.

I already gave him a list of heroes that are not perfect bodies and heads of hair. I already blew holes in his ‘evidence’ and I’ve already been misquoted by him several times.

I’ve also asked him a question several times that he has yet to answer and, so far, no one else who thinks that the change in Amanda’s body type isn’t a big deal has answered either.

Would Superman still be the boyscout if he was drawn skinny and creepy looking like Ragdoll? Would it be considered ‘not a major change’ if Batman were drawn as a sumo wrestler sized individual? As both of these would require the same basic body type change that was given to Amanda Waller, I really feel the answer to these questions is very relevant to the validity of the question of whether or not the body type change in Amanda Waller represnets a fundamental change in the character.

I welcome any reasonable discussion of this question.

Dude, there is a difference between recognizing and accepting that “sex sells” so you’ll have a hot babe as the main female character; and going to the extreme of making ALL female characters in the story drop-dead gorgeous.

The former is acceptable, the later is silly.

Say, in respected TV shows like SOPRANOS and LOST you may have some sexy women like Adriana LaCerva and Kate Austen, but you’ll also have characters like Tony Soprano’s sister, that is fat and middle-aged, and Sun that is sorta pretty but also flat-chested and not an action girl.

Series that have an all-BABELICIOUS cast are things like BAYWATCH, and then even the character’s dear mother will be a hot MILF. It’s fun in a silly way, but do you want your comics like that?

“I really feel the answer to these questions is very relevant to the validity of the question of whether or not the body type change in Amanda Waller represnets a fundamental change in the character.”

Well it is called a reboot for a reason… My advice, don’t mistake this Waller with the previous version… because they obviously aren’t the same person. Same with any other second rate background/instigator character, that appears as fodder for story: Assume nothing.

Same goes for Flamebird, Rose (who isn’t Ravager), Karen Star & any number of other characters.

@Rene

I couldn’t agree with you more. You make a really good point.

You know, although the visual of the short fat lady being the force to be recokoned with in the DC universe was great, it was not particularly necessary.

That said, I think the obvious youthening of the character makes little sense. How did someone so young wind up in such a position of power in the DC universe?

The Waller idea always struck me as the self made woman in world of comics, who had fought and clawed her way to the top. As such her age was the key, the weight as a hallmark of age just worked for visual effect, but the fact that she had been around the block was what was important.

This version also seems way less calculating so far. I can’t imagine the real Waller torturing her squad, when she could just as easily detonate them the second they got captured to prevent them talking. A death in the field is far easier to explain than a death in custody.

“That said, I think the obvious youthening of the character makes little sense. How did someone so young wind up in such a position of power in the DC universe?”

exceptional level of skill & personal drive… Just like every young male character in the same position would have.

VonGloom

I like you comment, “The Real Waller.” In a way it makes sense to me reading this hot mess of discontinuity DC has made. (The Killing Joke still happened! Well the middle did. The beginning and the ending, not so much. Blackest Night/Brightest Day still happened, well except that we’ve removed several characters involved, changed the continuity on others, but it still happened, trust us! Batman is still cannon, Tim Drake still has a past! Well except for Tim not being able to call on the Titans for help at any point in the past, and huge chunks of Batman’s past being removed, but dont’ worry, it happened)

I like my Walls made of Brick, not Straw.

I’m going with VonGloom and taking it one step further. I don’t know if anyone here has heard the “burner theory” before, where we all have four ‘burners’ that represent our lives and we have to select what goes on the front burners at full heat and which ones go the back, and which ones go off. Family, friends, health, and work are represented by these. What made Amanda stand apart from the standard comic character was that her body and persona were totally realistic to a person who, from everything we saw of her, turned family on low, friends and health to some extent off, and work on HIGH. She didn’t have the time to work on a hard body or pick up make-up because she wanted to SAVE THE WORLD, and it was a full-time career. Any number of devoted workaholics in reality look a LOT like Waller. And for those who see her as a unimportant back up character, think again. No one that unimportant would have already made the leap from comic to screen 4 times in the last decade (JLU, Smallville, Green Lantern, and “Public Enemies”)

Mad said:
“I guess on the DC universe’s Earth there isn’t such a thing as obesity.”

You’ve obviously never been to the DC Comics offices. :-0

Googam Son of Goom

September 16, 2011 at 12:21 pm

The old Amanda Waller was a character, she had character. This one is just another comic book woman.

I have a longer post about this on the “New Amanda Waller” thread on the forums, but the gist of it, to me, is this:

It’s not really a weight issue, it’s not a health issue, it’s not an image, or stereotype, or racism issue. None of the above.

What really is- again, to me- the issue here is that comics are a visual medium, and one with distinct limits. Static two-dimensional images, limited page count to demonstrate your story visually and textually and present your characters’ expressions, nuances, actions, etc. Films and television are likewise visual media, but in using real people, they are able to convey such a broader range of expression than you can ever achieve with a comic book. As a result, comics use visual shorthand- distinctive characters- to convey to the reader just who they are reading about.

It’s why spandex characters are such an inimical part of the genre, or distinct costumes. It’s the way readers know who is who. With live action, you can have wardrobe changes and still know Captain Reynolds from Captain Picard. In comics, it’s much harder, especially with non-costume wearing “normal” people. Can you pick out a Steve Rogers from a Hank Pym in a lineup if they’re not wearing masks? Very few artists (Perez comes to mind) can create fairly distinct faces.

Like it or lump it, the Wall has for over 20 years had a very distinct appearance- stocky, large/overweight. It is as inimical to her character as her blustering attitude and bureaucratic mentality. Lex Luthor’s baldness is as vital a character element to the villain as his suits or corporations. Changing those things- for whatever reason- is tantamount to creating a new character in many ways, and I don’t think the outcry against it is unwarranted at all.

Some character

(Huh- ignore that “some character” bit at the end. I think I was going to add something, but didn’t, and neglected to notice it there before posting.)

Actually Luthor originally had a full heaad of red hair, but at some point an artist goofed and confused him w/the ultra humanite and he was bald from then on.

Can you BELIEVE that they would just CHANGE a character’s HISTORY like that???

The HORROR!!!!!!!

Meh, there are other things to worry about besides the woman’s weight. Hell, if I can go from 450 pounds to 205, why can’t she drop hella weight?

Believe it or not, there are healthy large people. Perhaps that’s her natural size? Perhaps she has a glandular disorder? Some people just can’t lose weight no matter how much exercise they do, or how little they eat. Look at both the idealized male and female superheros; who in real life looks like that?

That is just factually untrue. Even if it WERE. Comic. Books.

The thing that defined Amanda Waller was that she was a classic victim stereotype stood on it’s head. She was the stereotypical motivation for so many stereotypical heroes, the poor widow woman trying to take care of her children all by her lonesome, won’t some hero come and help her?

Only no hero ever did, so Waller had to learn how to help herself. So by the time she actually met a goddamn hero, she was perfectly capable of doing her job and their job at the same time just fine.

That’s the Wall. That’s not this woman.

@Matthew
“Wowser, i just had an idea…. A vending machine you can buy comics from. How is it we’ve never done that before? Um… patent pending.”

Sorry, Matthew, somebody beat you to it. I used to buy comics from a vending machine back in the fall of 1967 in Washington, D.C. It was just like buying cigarettes from a machine. The machine was twice as wide as a coke machine, because the comics were laid out flat, about six different stacks to a shelf. And you pulled a knob just like a cigarette machine, causing your choice to drop.

I remember buying Batman 200, Superman 204, Metamorpho 17, Spectre 3, House of Mystery 173, and others, too, out of a huge machine.

Where’s the “hate” button on this thing?!

why is it when Jennifer Hudson losses weight everybody applauds her for looking great (which she does!) but when it happens to Amanda Waller for the relaunch it becomes this major controversy to the fabric of our social order of the human race!!? if any of you out there are Suicide Squad fan check this out: http://www.suicidesquadtaskforcex.blogspot.com/

Lioness you realize any fictional character is whatever that writer wants him/her to be.

All of those character traits can be intact if she is thin and young. The real prejudice is to think that a life like that can only happen to a fat old black woman.

Of course any character can be however the writer wants them to be. The important question is, will that character be believable?

I believed in the Wall. I knew women like her.

This young paper-pusher is not someone I believe in.

Did you believe in ‘The Wall’ after her very first panel appearance? I somehow doubt it. It takes time to love ANY character. If you do not give this version of the character a chance just because she’s thin, then you are behaving exactly like that which you are railing against.

@Lioness: You dont believei n young paper-pushers?

Thats a pretty wierd thing not to believe in.

I know Amanda Waller best from JLU. She was one of favorite characters and she didn’t need to be perfect.
When little girls see that all strong female role models are required to look like porn stars and dress like them, they grow up thinking that they have to dress like whores and starve themselves to be taken seriously.
On the other hand, Amanda Waller sends the message that you can make it big without looking like a modal. Working hard gets you there.
When all is said and done making Amanda skinny was not a good idea.

Little slow getting to the party, but this is a seriously idiotic decision!

One of my major annoyances with the people in charge is that they seem to be really really horny all the time — so much so that they are wiling to sacrifice credibility for juvenile sexual fantasy.

A character’s credibility comes from the congruence of the character’s actions, thoughts, motivations, occupation and yes, appearance. As many have already mentioned, Amanda Waller used to be believable as a fat, middle-aged, unsexy black woman. That’s the kind of appearance you would expect of someone that holds the position she has. That’s the kind of appearance you would expect of someone who is able to intimidate high-ranking military personnel, politicians and superheroes. It does her a great disservice to be changed in such a way as to make her into a character that can’t be taken seriously because she isn’t even close to believable.

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