Robot 6

Mark Millar defends Frank Miller against ‘cyber-mob mentality’

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns

Frank Miller, whose tirade against the Occupy movement was met with a largely negative, and frequently heated, response, has found an unlikely defender: left-leaning writer Mark Millar.

In a post on his Millarworld forum, the writer of Kick-Ass and The Ultimates says, “It’s strange to watch your favourite writer getting strips torn off him for a couple of days.”

“Politically, I disagree with his analysis, but that’s besides the point,” Millar continues. “I wasn’t shocked by his comments because they’re no different from a lot of commentators I’ve seen discussing the subject. What shocked me was the vitriol against him, the big bucket of shit poured over the head by even fellow comic-book creators for saying what was on his mind.”

As one commenter points out, it probably shouldn’t be shocking that Miller’s no-holds-barred screed, which characterizes Occupy protesters as “a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists” who “can do nothing but harm America,” was answered with a degree of vitriol. Or, in the commenter’s words, “if you throw the first bucket of shit [...] then you should be prepared for some splashback.” Perhaps if Miller’s commentary had been more reasoned and less inflammatory — “decorous,” as Miller himself would say — the reaction might’ve reflected that.

Instead, the writer of Daredevil: Born Again, Batman: Year One and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns delivered an unfocused, angry rant sprinkled with name-calling, weird putdowns — “Go back to your mommas’ basements and play with your Lords Of Warcraft“? — and an incongruous reference to al-Qaeda and “Islamicism” (it’s difficult not to be reminded of then-Sen. Biden’s criticism of Rudy Giuliani, that “there’s only three things he mentions in a sentence — a noun and a verb and 9/11″). There’s a strange, impotent fury to Miller’s words that makes him an inviting target for derision and dismissal as a paranoid crank, and leaves many readers wondering when precisely the disconnect occurred … and what he has against iPhones.

Millar (with an “a”), who faced criticism himself for comments made before the invasion of Iraq, bristles at what he sees as a “distasteful” “cyber-mob mentality” that’s rallied in response to Miller’s remarks.

“It’s not just that I like the guy, that his body of work is among the best the industry has ever seen,” Millar writes. “It’s the GLEE I’m seeing from some people and, worse, the calls I’ve seen to boycott his work because his perspective on a point differs from yours and mine. [...] Liberalism doesn’t mean throwing guys in jail who DISAGREE with your liberalism. It means accepting that society is richer when everybody has a voice. Starting economic sanctions against a writer until they shut up and agree with you is horrific.”

Although I’ve not seen the calls for boycotts, I’m sure they’re out there; the Internet is a greenhouse for boycotts and petitions. However, like so many other online protests, a movement against Miller’s body of work will fizzle, if it even gets off the ground. Readers outraged by the writer’s views about the Occupy movement likely weren’t ordering Holy Terror, tracking down 300 or counting the days until Xerxes. And few, if any, are going to stop reading or buying such seminal works as Batman: Year One or The Dark Knight Returns because, after a quarter-century, they conclude Miller is a crackpot whose views differ radically from their own. Odds are, both collections are already on their shelves anyway.

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135 Comments

I agree that Miller should be free to say whatever he wants, when he wants, and about what he wants. Free speech should be just that.

But I’m also free to disagree with him.

As for people saying they are going to boycott Miller’s future work – if that’s the case then they’re free to do that, too.

I try to seperate the art from the artist but boy, it’s hard sometimes.

It’s not THAT unlikely, given Millar’s recent calls for military action against the London rioters.

http://mindlessones.com/2011/09/24/great-moments-in-bastardry-kill-em-all/

The question I is what should the reaction be?
If “We” are not to match him screed for screed, nor boycott his work, then what tactic do you take against a figure who just won’t listen? I don’t want to say that talk is hopeless, but Miller’s obviously reached that golden point where he simply can’t/won’t listen to an opposing viewpoint–like shouting at the AM radio while driving.

MIller was always a homophobic, misogynist, rightwing apologist. Why it took this long for people to clue in, I have no idea.

“Perhaps if Miller’s commentary had been more reasoned and less inflammatory — “decorous,” as Miller himself would say — the reaction might’ve reflected that.”

Please. The internet is indeed a greenhouse for anonymous people to write anything they like and get away with it, while Mr. Miller will indeed suffer the repercussions as he is willing to put his name to what he says. The reaction would have been exactly the same, as the Occupy people have been put on some sort of pedestal as great people doing great things, when all they are doing is squatting on private property and being a public nuisance. Well, I guess now they have some upgraded accomodations in jail.

I don’t think Millar understands*, or if he does, he doesn’t care. The problem is not his opinion. The problem is how he expressed said opinion. You don’t like the Occupy movement, fine. Crazy rage-outs are not an acceptable expression of that opinion. He is a violent, hate-filled man and that should never be tolerated. Only by calling attention to it can we try to keep that sort of expression limited.

**Given the intelligence level of his own body of work, I somehow doubt that he grasps the fundamentals.

I don’t know if this new press and calls for a boycott won’t have an effect.I certainly won’t be ordering any of his collections for my college courses on comic books and graphic novels. I already knew of his politics from the Sin City letters columns (that odd mixture of libertarianism and neo-con politics that seems not to love personal freedoms, but instead personally enjoys political restrictions), but his recent outbursts have reminded me of how repugnant I do find him.

@JRC: I don’t think that there is a “should” in this case. It’s not like anyone has to respond to him. Why does it matter to you whether he wants to listen to an opposing viewpoint or not? We all have freedom of speech, not an entitlement to be heard. If your intention is to engage him in dialogue that’s a different discussion, but he’s free to be unflinching in his beliefs, regardless of what they are.

Millar is right, though. As distasteful as Miller’s comments were, the retorts, especially from Simone and others, were hardly classy or conductive to a greater debate. I don’t agree with his overall assessments or the way he said them, but resorting to namecalling and insulting the MAN because of his views is just as wrong, especially if you’re going to (again, Simone) try and claim the higher moral ground and sound intelligent yourself.

Regarding the calls for boycotts. I did comment on the original Robot 6 post saying that I don’t read anything he’s done after 1989. But, to actively organize a boycott against Miller seems pointless. It’s not like it would really accomplish anything, and there are a lot bigger issues in the world to organize campaigns against then an out-of-touch comic book creator.

While Miller may have been influential once, it seems that his time has passed. I wonder how Alan Moore feels about occupy wall street since the Guy Fawkes mask from V for Vendetta has become a symbol of these types of movements.

Frank Miller is free to say what he likes–but freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. I don’t have any desire to read or watch anything with his name on it after this, and don’t think a boycott is unreasonable at all. I read plenty of writers whose politics may be different from mine (and have a number of conservative, sometimes very conservative, friends and close acquaintances) but it really is a matter of what exactly you say and how you conduct yourself. Miller conducted himself poorly, about as poorly as he could have done. There is, rightly, a backlash to what he said.

Is it “glee?” I don’t know. I don’t like reading that sort of ignorant screed no matter who’s making it, I take no joy in it at all. But I think Miller has also severely damaged his reputation through recent works–I enjoyed some of ASBAR, but Holy Terror was inexcusable on every level–and I think this tirade gave people a reason to react to his person in a way that was fueled in part by their reaction to his art.

Not surprised…these ‘English” writers are the reason North American comics have tanked in the last decade.

Peter, you are a moron.

If you’re going to put yourself out there and make inflammatory comments in a public forum, then one should be prepared for feedback. Freedom of speech and all that, you know. Miller’s completely free to bash the occupiers…and people who hear his message are also completely free to express their own opinions as well.

Mark Millar is just as much of a purveyor of crass grimdark passing for deep thought (and subsequently having the industry kiss his ass for it) as Frank Miller is. So of course he’s defending him.

Without Frank Miller, Mark wouldn’t have a job.

“While Miller may have been influential once, it seems that his time has passed. I wonder how Alan Moore feels about occupy wall street since the Guy Fawkes mask from V for Vendetta has become a symbol of these types of movements.”

Here’s David Lloyd’s quote:

“The Guy Fawkes mask has now become a common brand and a convenient placard to use in protest against tyranny – and I’m happy with people using it, it seems quite unique, an icon of popular culture being used this way.”

Moore said something similiar, but for some reason I’m not finding it at the moment.

@Charles J. Baserap: To be fair, Gail Simone did not insult Frank Miller the MAN. She said that his *views* were “bullshit”.

Miller’s rant was over the top. He is Frank Miller after all. If you read that and were really offended, the only effective reaction is to ignore him. To write diatribes about how awful he is and how terrible his work is now only adds to the noise. It’s amazing how things like this bring out people’s moral superiority.

For me, his rant sounded like an old man sitting on a porch griping about kids these days. It should be given the same amount of attention. There are better thoughts on the movement, both pro and con. How about we spend our energy on those?

Well, I, for one, had been somewhat looking forward to “Xerxes” but my enthusiasm for the project diminished a bit with the “preview” in Dark Horse Presents #1 (silly me–I’d expected to see a few pages of actual art and story, but instead, we’re given a couple of random images in the middle of an interview/wankfest with Miller; maybe I have a different idea of what a “preview” is supposed to be). Following Miller’s incredibly vile comments about people using their First Amendment rights, I’m no longer interested in “Xerxes” and, more amazingly, I’ve lost all interest in ever seeing “All-Star Batman & Robin”s conclusion (admittedly, after 3 years since issues 11 & 12 were REsolicited, the prospects for the book’s ever being completed had dropped to zero).

As for Mark’s comments, I don’t recall what comments he made before the invasion of Iraq, but I find it a bit disingenuous for him to be suggesting that it’s not liberal to call for boycotts. No one is suggesting that Frank not be allowed to write or draw but that people who are offended by his comments express their distaste in the only manner they really can–by NOT financing his lunacy. (On a side note here, Mark, your very “Liberalism doesn’t mean” comment is very odd. Are you saying that only conservatives should be allowed to protest and boycott against people or companies that have policies or ideas that the conservatives find anathema? It certainly seems that way. When only conservatives get the “right to protest or boycott” as a way of shutting up the opposition, that seems to be just as “horrific.”)

Well said, Kevin.

@ JRC and seconding some of what Drake says, the “response” to this and any/everything else is to live your life according to your own principals, morals, beliefs and convictions. The notion that we have to “respond” to everything in some way is detrimental to progress. “Be the change” may be overused and wrongly attributed, but it’s the best approach that I’ve come across.

Here’s an Alan Moore quote that’s related to Anonymous using the masks to protest Scientology. My guess is his views on their use in Occupy demonstrations wouldn’t be that different:

“I was also quite heartened the other day when watching the news to see that there were demonstrations outside the Scientology headquarters over here, and that they suddenly flashed to a clip showing all these demonstrators wearing V for Vendetta [Guy Fawkes] masks. That pleased me. That gave me a warm little glow.”

Sandwich eater mused, “While Miller may have been influential once, it seems that his time has passed. I wonder how Alan Moore feels about occupy wall street since the Guy Fawkes mask from V for Vendetta has become a symbol of these types of movements.”

I don’t really know. Maybe you could ask how he felt about the Alan Grant/Norm Breyfogle creation, Anarky. Anarky’s mask was nothing more than a very simplified Guy Fawkes mask.

I disagree with a call for boycotts, with the caveat that I don’t think choosing not to buy Holy Terror because of Miller’s politics counts as a boycott.

I don’t mind buying, say, Fables, because (one Israel reference aside) the book’s not about Willingham’s personal politics. Same with early Cerebus — though once you start talking about later Cerebus, yes, Sim’s views start overwhelming the book.

I love Rick Veitch, and picked up his 9/11 “truther” book because I hoped there would at least be some over-the-top madness in it, but ultimately it wasn’t even entertaining as propaganda — it was bland and conventional, and I won’t be buying any of the followups he’s said are forthcoming.

I’m a bit confused as to whether or not Miller has always been an islamophobic right-wing crank. Daredevil: Born Again seemes to have been written by an author with a critical view of Capitalism-cum-Conglomerism, as well as US military operations abroad. For me, it is difficult to reconcile the present-day Miller with the one who produced all those great comics in the Eighties.

These two clowns pour dirt and vitriol into their work and then are shocked when it comes back to them? They’re dumber than I thought.

Cyber-Mob my arse. Frank called OWS “rapists”. Is this seriously worth defending?

I guess we can just ignore Miller, but by speaking in public (consider blog posts a public forum) it would seem he’s looking for reaction.
I guess I’m working under that assumption.
Even if Miller doesn’t want to hear an opposing point, any OWS motivated speech or action is going to be a form of reaction–at least tangentially.

I don’t have a problem with Miller’s stance on the Occupy movement. What made me upset, and very unlikely to do anything that may add to his bank account, was his hate filled diatribe.

One of my oldest and dearest friends is a part of the OWS movement in New York since its third week. He’s there standing up for something he believes in, even after being arrested multiple times. He’s not a rapist or even much of a gamer, but he is a veteran of Afghanistan.

I guess I also have a problem with Miller’s apparent fear of a nameless and ruthless enemy. What exactly does he mean by “Islamicism?” Why am I supposed to be scared? What am I supposed to be scared of? What does that have to do with the OWS movement?

You’re free to express your opinion…unless it disagrees with the liberal comic world’s opinion.

A boycott by private citizens is just a bunch of individuals making a purchasing decision for something they believe in. If people want to do that, more power to them, their dollars, their call.

Also, once you label whole groups with inflammatory words (rapists) you lose credibility in my view. Generalizations like that are sloppy and unhelpful. Also people who ‘rant’ have got to expect someone might want to rant back.

Did Miller change my view of the Occupy people? No. Did he change my view of him? Yes.

@ULTIMO, fair enough. I just dislike her immensely because she’s written some VERY broadbrushed views on her page and on the CBR forums in the past where everyone she disagrees with politically is called some slur or name or she’ll introduce a “debate” topic that basically outlines it’s my side versus all the idiots on the other side and it’s so myopic it turns my stomach just as much as Miller’s tirade did. There’s no place for that sort of stuff in open discourse.

Frank Miller is right. ‘Nuff said.

If Frank Miller had made the exact same blog post, with the exact same vitriol, and replaced “occupy wall street” with “the tea party,” or “Sarah Palin,” no one would be complaining about “tone.”

In fact, most of the people screaming the loudest right now would besides themselves with glee at a chance to “defend free speech.” Or have we forgotten all the left-leaning commentators, artists and writers who were insistent that there was nothing wrong with Ed Brubaker using Captain American to call tea partiers racist a few months ago?

Is there anything more tiresome than watching a bully use inflammatory hate speech and violent rhetoric, then responding to the backlash by playing the victim card?

Miller’s right. Who told rebellious youths to take on the establishment with their own sense of justice? Oh yeah … http://tinyurl.com/7yuj8eh

Mark sounds like he didn’t read any of the specific things Frank said. People aren’t reacting the way they are because Frank had a difference of opinion — they’re reacting because Frank’s words were filled with vitriol and hatred towards the people he was disagreeing with. He called them rapists, for Christ’s sake — that’s unacceptable!

What do you expect when you call an entire group of people “rapists”? A reasoned response?

I got pissed because Miller basically personally insulted me. I laughed because his arguments weren’t just angry, they made no sense (rapists? wtf?). I boycott Miller’s work because the guy has become of a parody of himself and hasn’t made a good comic in fucking forever. He’s made some entertaining ones sure…but he has fallen apart. And I think some of the reason for that is that he let his politics and weird issues with women and violence take over his work.

Nice to see Millar step up and defend Miller here, yeah the anti-Occupy rant was hyperbolic — but the idea that the OWS movement should somehow be above reproach and that any dissenting voices should be viciously dogpiled is laughable.

I think most of the Occupy folks are well-intentioned, but there are radical, violent, and dangerous Black Bloc ‘anarchists’ (who used some of the peaceful demonstrations in Oakland as a pretext to loot and vandalize) within the movement, and enough reports about crime and sexual battery within the Occupy encampments have surfaced that calling out some Occupiers as ‘criminals’ and ‘rapists’ isn’t utterly baseless.

And whatever arguable the Occupiers may have done to ‘change the conversation’ in the direction of their flawed, ‘It’s the 99% vs. the 1%’ class warfare paradigm (flawed because even if we did tax the living crap out of big corporations and the top 1%, we still wouldn’t have enough money to subsidize the expansive European-style welfare state the OWS crowd desires without taxing small businesses and the middle class with equal viciousness) will inevitably be undone by the damage their movement is doing to local governments across the country. Most of the cities with large Occupy movements (Oakland, San Francisco, Chicago, etc.) are already cash-strapped and the huge costs of managing and cleaning up after the Occupiers will further compromise local aid budgets that have already been strained to the limits of their tolerance.

I sympathize with the frustrations of the Occupiers. The economy sucks, who doesn’t want to rage about it a little? But that’s really all they’re doing. Real activism (identifying specific policy objectives, building the political consensus to actually realize them, then voting accordingly) is *hard*.

On the other hand camping out, getting stoned, singing protest songs, and parading around (especially if you can do so in such a way as to disrupt working folks just trying to hang on to their jobs and survive these tough times) is *fun*.

But it’s also self-indulgent, and more than a little destructive. That’s what causes folks like Frank Miller (who, let’s not forget, did *real*, substantive activism in support of creator rights and against censorship) to view OWS and its ilk with contempt — and that contempt is not without justification.

And Hank, I disagree with you. Fox news and shit would be all over his ass for even daring to come out against the Tea Party and Palin, and I would still be talking shit about his tone. Some vitriol and anger is fine, racism and calling people rapists and thieves is another.

As an European, I support with the same strength, the comments from Frank Miller and the comments from Mark Millar.

We are living in free countries. We were educated to understand that other person may have her own pow and can say them.

If you want to shut this person, or to boycott anything she can say or do, you are nothing more than a loser, a closed-mind, a shit.

Our ancestors have given their youth and blood to us, to give us the rights to think differently, to speak differently, to accept all the differences the whole world is bringing.

To forget these simple facts for a so-called “outrageous sentient”, it is to have lets our ancestors to have died for nothing.

The way some people are thinking now with “closed-mind” is frightening because it generally conducts to the extremism.

And it is what it is to be done in a lot of the posts…

(It is my true name, I will never hide myself behind a pseudo)

Both the Left and the Right agree that Free Speech is important and must be protected. The difference between how both sides deal with Free Speech that is contrary to their side is telling. The Left manage to appear tolerant by labeling anything they disagree with as ‘hate speech’, and therefore no longer under the protection of the First Amendment. It’s always struck me as odd that supposedly creative types who work in the comic industry align themselves with the side most in favor of censorship.

amazing the level of pure ignorance on the Internet. You realize that rapes and sexual assaults have occurred at several of these camps right??

Ooops… I mean “Point of View” and “Prisoner of War”… Sorry guys!!!!! ;)

you don’t understand. If the Occupy people chose to dress themselves as Gotham Mutants, instead of Guy Fawkes, Miller would have praised them. The guy is just jealous.

@ HANK
“If Frank Miller had made the exact same blog post, with the exact same vitriol, and replaced “occupy wall street” with “the tea party,” or “Sarah Palin,” no one would be complaining about “tone.” ”

I am REALLY sick of hearing these complaints from Conservatives (and to a degree from your opposits on the Left).
You don’t like that commentors here are skewing Left? Well then, maybe that tells you there are just more folks on the other side, and that’s something you’ll have to deal with.

I am very media aware, and over the last year, as the Tea Party organized and gained solidity, every attack on them was met with a strong push back in the news–sometimes it was thoughtful and reasoned, sometimes it was a reactionary idiotic screed, but I am just tired of this LIE that conservatives push about their opinions being met with deaf ears and intolerance. It might have been true a few decades ago, but you don’t have the right to that argument anymore. Will entertainment skew to progressive angles, to a degree it will simply because that’s the nature of it’s beast, but there isn’t a credible news outlet today that doesn’t have a tit for tat policy on presenting the polarized views of these contentious issues.

If you want a balance from HufPo or The Nation, you aint gunna get it, but I don’t tune into Rush Limbaugh or read BigHollywood.com expecting the left (or my moderate side) to get a fair shake either.

Miller is a washed up , burned out hack, whose ignorant rants should be ignored.

Everyone should read Will Naslund’s post.

You lefties on this wall make me laugh. The last few posts have been excellent. Whereas AngryRightistMob only sometimes = intolerance, AngryLeftistMob always = intolerance.
@Kenn: Your post is pure gold. Thank you for commenting. “Both the Left and the Right agree that Free Speech is important and must be protected. The difference between how both sides deal with Free Speech that is contrary to their side is telling. The Left manage to appear tolerant by labeling anything they disagree with as ‘hate speech’, and therefore no longer under the protection of the First Amendment. It’s always struck me as odd that supposedly creative types who work in the comic industry align themselves with the side most in favor of censorship.”

Frank Miller is right on the money here… Which is the main reason so many of his so-called ‘open minded’ fellow creators were so quick to jump on him. The OWS movement is a disaster and there’s no way to spin it as something positive, not with the rapes, the assaults, the anti-semitism, and the backing of such great groups like the Communist Party, the Nazi Party, and KKK… I should be surprised by the amount of hatred the left is throwing at Miller… but honestly I’m not.

Yeah, freedom of speech swings both ways. Frank Miller can say whatever her wants, the ‘collective internet’ can ‘say’ whatever it wants. Everyone has the right to say everyone else is dumb.

And Mark Millar has the right to be upset about it all.

The REAL problem would be if we wanted to throw people in jail for saying things they believe.

They should both shut up and just make comics (or not). I could care less about their views on anything except what it is they are both good at- making comics. What is it about people who gain even a modicum of notoriety in given field and then think giving their views on anything is worthwhile?
And I realize that by posting here I am illustrating my point- who cares what I think? Difference is I know no one cares. I’m posting for myself.
Death to Twitter, Facebook and the addition of comments to every article or post on the web. It just brings out the worst in us.

No one is being arrested for their beliefs.

They are being arrested for breaking the law, like camping at a place that doesn’t allow camping, disorderly conduct, assault(s), etc.

@Blake: You seem to be suggesting that no innocent people have been arrested. Susie Cagle says she was arrested for refusing to leave the scene of a riot, even though she was TRYING to leave.

But then, if you think the actions of the Oakland PD in recent weeks (hell, YEARS) are justifiable, then I’m not sure we’re going to find any common ground here.

@Whippis: What’s Frank Miller’s most famous work?

Dark Knight Returns is pretty effing political. Remember the part about Reagan literally draping himself in a flag while sending out Superman to quiet Batman down because he stepped out of line?

Oh, and speaking of Reagan, you might remember HE was a Hollywood celebrity with some political opinions.

So you’re suggesting she was arrested for her beliefs then? Even though she was caught in a bad situation (a riot) and was subsequently arrested for being in the vicinity of said riot, despite her best efforts to leave?

If she honestly and truly tried to leave but couldn’t and got caught up, then it’ll all come out in the wash, but don’t pin that she was arrested for her beliefs.

That said, I have never had a high opinion of Oakland as a whole either.

Who’s surprised that Millar is defending Miller? He’s already embarked on the same journey from leftist to creepy crypto-conservative that Miller completed five or six years ago.

@Thad

“But then, if you think the actions of the Oakland PD in recent weeks (hell, YEARS) are justifiable, then I’m not sure we’re going to find any common ground here.”

Clearly, the police response to Occupy Oakland hasn’t covered itself in glory — but I’m not sure you can lay that entirely at the feet of the OPD. Much of the confusion and violence that ensued came from logistical and operational disconnects between the OPD and several other police departments from nearby communities, and their presence wouldn’t have been necessary if the size, scale, and volatility of the Occupy forces hadn’t forced the OPD to call in reinforcements.

So did the cops screw up? Yeah — but so did the protesters. More than once. Downtown Oakland has extensive property damage due to rioters and local business is at a virtual standstill since most normal, law-abiding folks have the good sense to stay away from such a dangerous, lawless environment.

Think I’m exaggerating? Somebody staying at the Occupy Oakland encampment was murdered last week, and both suspects in the murder were Occupiers as well — sounds a lot like ‘anarchy’ to me.

And at the end of the day, Oakland taxpayers will eventually have to dearly pay to cover the police overtime and cleanup costs necessary to maintain and repair the Occupiers’ party space — funds that could (and likely would) have gone to help the less fortunate.

I agree with Millar; Miller can say what he wants. Probably wasn’t good that he was so inflammatory, but he can still say what he wants. Sure, we can also say what we want, but calling for petitions until he changes his mind is stupid. He most likely won’t change his mind, and we shouldn’t be trying to change his mind.

Miller’s comments really surprise me, given his past work and criticism of the Right Wing. If not for the citation, I wouls have assumed Miller’s comments were made by NEWT GINGRICH or MITT ROMNEY! The only criticism I have of the Occupy movement is that they may be wasting their time with the “sit-in” as we used to call them and that they should focus their efforts on the coming elextions. While the Democratic Party has its share of so-called “Conservatives”, the GOP and the Tea Party has CLEARLY shown they are openly hostile to many of the items the Occupy Movement claim they support. Anarchism is only a waste of time–most Americans like myself don’t think that is the solution. I see it as a struggle for the heart and soul of the country both morally and politically and neither is exclusive of the other.

As for Mr. Miller don’t forget what they used to say in the 60s: “YOU’RE EITHER PART OF THE SOLUTION OR YOU’RE PART OF THE PROBLEM! One should lead, follow or get the heck out of the way! I wouldn’t bother to boycott any of Miller’s work–he just hasn’t done anything interesting to me in a long time anyway!

All of my non-comics friends were appalled by Miller’s words, and the megalomaniacal way in which he expressed his ideas.

Millar is full of s***. And missing the point.

I agree pretty much with Frank. Those people don’t even know what they are protesting. The quickest way to get them to stop would be to go down there and offer them jobs. They would scatter like roaches.

George Bush (not that one)

November 15, 2011 at 11:49 am

“Different universe-same dumb” I’ll never understand what Grant Morrison saw in Millar.What is it about money that makes people think they are better than others?

I feel bad that poor Frank Miller has lost his way so badly…I truly believe that if 30 year old Frank Miller could hear and see what older Frank Miller is saying and writing, there would be an amazing satirical strip on it written by early Frank Miller self that I would no doubt scour through old comic shops to find (because of it’s severe underprinting and scarcity…like all his other work I searched for for years) and thouroughly enjoy reading it. I’m sure Frank has his reasons for feeling whatever it is he is feeling, but it’s not the same Frank I think many of us can/ or care to relate to…the sequels to 300 and sin City are looking less and less appetizing…the money that I’m saving on the tickets after all, could go to getting updates for my iphone and world of Warcraft game ;)

Well said Mark Millar

I’ll say it again: Frank Miller is a mad, ignorant, screaming tit. Furthermore, Holy Terror is monument of sheer undiluted hate. It is dangerous.

Aaaand that’s why some new readers mistake MIllar with Miller.

Frank’s post was titled ANARCHY. Do you think he was trying to cause some with his wild and crazy post?

@Blake: Yes, that is exactly what I believe. She was arrested for attending a rally.

Yes, the rallies have been classified as riots. And obviously there’s blame to go ’round on both sides; I won’t condone any violence from protesters just because I agree with their message. But I haven’t heard of any police being hospitalized with cracked skulls or ruptured spleens.

The response has been utterly disproportionate.

As far as things coming out in the wash? We’ll see. Last time the Oakland PD made the national news, an officer shot an unarmed man in the back and got off with involuntary manslaughter.

@Will: Well, we’re a little closer.

I’m not denying the need for a police presence, and I’m certainly not denying that someone getting murdered is a terrible, crazy thing. But a focused, targeted police presence is necessary, not tear gas and beatings.

The public should be able to trust the police, and rely on them for protection. This has become impossible in Oakland. And that’s not the protesters’ fault.

There are positive stories about the Occupy movement’s interaction with the police elsewhere in the country. Yesterday the Occupy Buffalo crowd held a Police Appreciation Day, and I recently read of a gathering of Occupy Atlanta protesters to prevent a local policeman’s home from being seized by the bank.

Protesters and law enforcement do not need to be enemies.

And, @Desslok: Occupy and the Tea Party don’t need to be enemies either. Yes, most (not all) of the Tea Party representatives in Congress appear to be openly hostile to any sort of compromise, but that’s not the same thing as saying the Tea Party itself is. At the end of the day, Occupy and the Tea Party want the same thing: a fair shake. The rest is details.

I’m a liberal, but my day-to-day life bears a much closer resemblance to a typical Tea Partier’s than to a Wall Street broker’s or a Washington politician’s.

We all want an opportunity to work hard and be compensated fairly. We may approach it from different directions — liberal versus conservative, focusing on corporations or focusing on Washington — but there’s a hell of a lot of common ground. Neither side wants to see low-level employees losing their pensions because somebody at the top gambled and lost, but neither does either side want to see that same exec granted a golden parachute.

We can find common ground and work from there — unless we let this turn into a left-versus-right, us-versus-them narrative, which is precisely what the politicians and fat cats want.

Frank Miller appears to be in the early stages of some kind of mental illness. The progression in his art and themes are pretty grim. I don’t own any of his comics and I don’t plan to.

I fully support boycotts and I am careful not to watch content with Scientologists or any of the actors who signed the Polanski petition. I don’t buy Frank Miller’s stuff since he turned the most aggressively homosexual society in human history into a bunch of incredibly muscular, half naked, beefcake … homophobes. I don’t have to tell you what’s going on there.

Mark Millar is a total non-entity who hasn’t written anything worth reading full stop.
“Starting economic sanctions against a writer until they shut up and agree with you is horrific.”

Or an ethical stance to be proud of.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone is free to boycott whatever they want.

Go for it! Good for you!

George Bush (not that one)

November 15, 2011 at 1:32 pm

Stuart, thanks for mentioning the Polanski petition. Terry Gilliam made me sad. Fuck them.

Schnitzy Pretzelpants

November 15, 2011 at 1:33 pm

Here’s my two cents.

I agree with Millar insomuch as he’s advocating being more articulate and specific, and less insulting than Miller was and is.

I don’t agree though that Miller should be beyond any form of reproach – he shouldn’t – but here’s the thing: most of these criticisms levied against Miller aren’t for his opinion, they are being levied against him in response to how mean-spirited, and personal and plain erroneous his statements were. He was more interested in throwing mud and being insulting than he was in making any point. Really he was venting bile and anger more than he was articulating a reasoned opinion.

Millar, expressing as many of us did that he couldn’t support the invasion/war against Iraq wasn’t throwing insults at those that did, or even at the then-administration (at least not that I recall). I recall Millar simply expressing what a number of us kept asking: “Where is the connection between Iraq, Al-Qaeda, and 9/11?” and not feeling sufficient proof had been produced to support that war. He also – again this is my memory of the debacle – made sure that he confined his criticism to the act of war itself, and again as many of us did, made a clear distinction between the conflict, and the men and women who were ‘in the trenches’.

Miller hasn’t done this in this case. He hasn’t separated any of the issues at work with the Occupy movement. The people involved are involved from a fairly wide-array of issues and concerns, and yes, like any mob and movement of this size, these situations can become magnets for people who are only interested in causing trouble, and provoking through more violent means, rather than mindful and reasoned ones. Miller instead is painting the movement with one solid and large brush trying to taint the goals, morals and objectives of a mass of people with the character of those who represent the worst of those assembled.

As far as a boycott of Miller’s work – it doesn’t appear to me as if anyone has made a call for boycotting the man’s work, though it wouldn’t surprise me if someone had. If that is the case, yes, it is a bit much, and I do think such boycotts are pretty knee-jerk reactions, and have about as much nuance and rationale thought as…well, Miller’s remarks on his blog.

However, for individuals to say that they can no longer support Miller’s work because of his statements, well, that’s their right. I also have to add though that I seriously doubt most of us mean this statement literally anyway. I don’t expect Miller’s statements to put much of any dent into future sales of deluxe and trade paperback editions of the Dark Knight Returns, Batman Year One, Born Again or any of the works that made most of us fans of his work. I suspect that for most us, it merely means we have yet another excuse not to buy the work of Miller that we don’t really care for anyway – such as Holy Terror or All-Star Batman.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but Miller could have posted a full-borne love-letter to the Occupy movement on his blog, and I still wouldn’t touch either of those titles with a ten-foot pole.

@ JRC: It’s one thing to say “Miller is wrong” and explain why you feel that way. It’s quite another to rail about how “uncivilized” discourse has become yet support that same type of discourse when it is a group you DON’T like. One is a discussion of the issue. The other is simply hypocrisy.

So miller is free to have an opinion and voice it, and the people who don’t agree with it aren’t entitled to voice theirs? But if they do they are essentially accused of being bullies? I don’t agree with boycotting his work, year one is pretty awesome.

@ Brian Marino. Miller referred to rapists and thieves because of ongoing reports of rapes, thefts and violence at Occupy sites.

And the violence continues. Just in the past day: ABC News reported another Occupy rape, this one in Philadelphia. In Denver, HotAir.com reported, the 99% invaded a hotel. The Orlando Sentinel reported that two protesters there had a knife fight over a drum circle.

I wonder if Frank Miller has taken Wall Street or NeoCon cash? Sorta like Penn and Teller’s TV show is mostly just a paid infomercial for a right wing agenda hiding behind a Libertarian label. Dennis Miller is another paid for guy.

You people railing about Wall Street cash and evil corporations DO realize that DC and Marvel are both owned by giant, Wall Street funded, multinational corporations, don’t you? Which begs the question why–if giant corporations are so oppressive–are any of these writers and artists allowed to support the Occupiers?

@Hank: To be precise, Frank Miller said, “”Occupy” is nothing but a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists”.

While there ARE allegations of theft and rape, saying that Occupy is “nothing but a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists” is as fallacious as saying police are nothing but power-mad bullies who beat and gas innocent people.

Or, you know, implying that all Muslims are terrorists.

Like so many others expressed, Frank Miller got slammed for his bad writing. I mean, he’s a professional writer and that post was the equivalent to saying “You protesters are a bunch of doodie heads and the cops should smash your face in!” He deserves to get shit on for that.

As for Millar’s sycophant article, MM is basically saying “Frank Miller has the right to spew his shit, but if you buy his work YOU shouldn’t have the right to express your displeasure with assholes by boycotting his work.

And to Mark Millar: no one was “taking strips” out of your “hero”. No one physically hurt Frank Miller. The only reason you are defending him is because he wrote some comics that influenced you as a child. Grow a backbone and quit idolizing the man. The reason everyone jumped on Miller is because he is a famous person who said something stupid. If you can accept large groups of people praising him for his work, then why can’t you accept the criticism that goes with fame? I can assure you, Frank Miller doesn’t give a damn about his critics (or probably people in general).

I boycotted his work a long time ago. The man hasn’t written anything decent since the early 90s.

Frank Miller is a narrow, bigoted asshole, and we shouldn’t support people like that case closed.

miller supporter

November 15, 2011 at 1:59 pm

Miller is right about the OWS crowd. They have no clear understanding of economics or the world in general. They demand that others pay for them when they decide to not work hard and pay their own debt. They demand an end to capitalism yet they practice it with clothes and phones they buy. Miller is speaking for a.generation that worked jobs they didn’t like to make ends met, while these children will not. For liberals to attack Miller so harshly shows their hypocracy. They demand open-mindedness and tolerance yet express none to others. Miller is not right winged,.he just isn’t a liberal.

Tim, which brings me back to my original point:

It was FINE for liberals (including Ed Brubaker in-of all things-a corporately produced comic book) to label everyone in the Tea Party as “racist.” But when Miller does the same thing with the Occupiers suddenly it becomes “oh, we CAN’T lump everyone in a political movement together….that’s mean spirited.”

Hypocrisy. Pure and simple.

Actually, Tim should have been Thad. Sorry.

I don’t think people seem to understand that MIller’s right to free speech is not trampled upon when other’s use their right to point out he’s acting like an idiot.

I don’t hate Frank Miller. I’m disappointed, and there cannot be disappointment without love. While the people of the United States are falling deeper into poverty and joblessness, he derides the people advocating better social services, and encourages the continued bombings in the middle east.

Come home Frank.

i don’t understand, if a high profile person makes a public comment, isn’t a response inevitable? And if that comment seems miss informed and ludicrous and the response is negative in kind is that really a surprise or the work of a mob? I seems that Mark might be trying a little to hard to seem above it all, Frank Miller is entitled to his opinion like any one else, but at the same time can you really blame people for responding to it? no you can’t i am sure Frank Miller isn’t peeing his pants or anything he is a big boy I’m sure he loves the response from everyone.

Hank, I am a liberal, and I always thought people labeling the Tea Party as a bunch of racists were taking a cheap shot. Don’t assume that all liberals are like Frank Miller and people like him.

Still, Brubaker had the Falcon saying something I don’t agree with. And it was consistent with the Falcon’s background as a Harlem social worker. It wasn’t necessarily Brubaker himself saying it.

Miller Supporter – The problem, as I’ve pointed earlier, is that the 1% rely on government support. You support capitalism, that is fine. But at least you should support it across the board. What I don’t agree with is socialism for the rich, and capitalism for the poor.

I feel sorry for poor Frank. His mental state seems delusional. And his comics work has sucked for decades.

The Frank Miller who revitalized Daredevil and eloquently defended Jack Kirby is long gone.

I believe he has the right to voice his opinions, though — and everyone who thinks he’s woefully wrong has the right to voice their opinions, too. We also have the right to not buy his racist, militant, poorly-drawn product. Not necessarily to boycott, but simply because it sucks. And has been maintaining a high level of suckage for over 25 years.

R.I.P. Frank Miller.

The sad thing about Miller is that he seems to have been completely consumed by Islamic paranoia. He evidently judges everything through that myopic lens. His mind is stuck in 2001, a time we were being told that Saddam was in cahoots with Osama bin Laden and we should be really, really afraid of WMD. Evidently, Frank didn’t get the memo that they’re dead.

Reading this part of his screed…

“Wake up, pond scum. America is at war against a ruthless enemy.

Maybe, between bouts of self-pity and all the other tasty tidbits of narcissism you’ve been served up in your sheltered, comfy little worlds, you’ve heard terms like al-Qaeda and Islamicism.

And this enemy of mine — not of yours, apparently – must be getting a dark chuckle, if not an outright horselaugh – out of your vain, childish, self-destructive spectacle.

In the name of decency, go home to your parents, you losers. Go back to your mommas’ basements and play with your Lords Of Warcraft.

Or better yet, enlist for the real thing. Maybe our military could whip some of you into shape.”

I get the feeling that his main beef with the OWS “rapists” is that they aren’t volunteering to fight the demonic Muslim hordes that are coming to destroy us tomorrow.

Circus barker defending right wing neo-con–if that’s not an example of free speech in America, I don’t know what is.

Cookie Crisp 1970

November 15, 2011 at 3:26 pm

I will make it a point to buy more of MillEr’s stuff now. MillAr definitely took a rise in my opinion of him with his statement defending MillEr’s right to his feelings. Daredevil is one of my favorites because of Frank MillEr. As is Batman. He’s entitled to his opinion.

Big surprise here folks: but there are people out there who actually agree that the OWS movements are doomed to failure and a waste of time. Judging by the police reports there are more than a few criminals sprinkled in with the protesters as well….so MillEr’s not entirely wrong. If his opinions on things offend you—then I guess you are entitled to stop buying his comics. He aint going broke anytime soon though. You dont have to agree with someone’s politics or lifestyle to enjoy their art (as long as it isnt drenched in their views and a preachy piece of propaganda.

I like watching Morgan Freeman. But I absolutely dont agree with some recent statements he has made. It doesnt mean I am going to stop enjoying him as an actor. I hate Mark Millar’s politics and a lot of his views and even some of his writing. But I am going to come down on his side in this scenerio. He’s right. Leave MillEr the heck alone. I dont agree with the folks who take drugs, drink, live an alternative lifestyle…the list goes on. But I am not so closed minded I cannot enjoy their artistry even while disagreeing with their choices about religion,politics, and living.

Miller is free to write whatever he wants and if he writes something and puts it where others can read it then he should expect people to respond and those people are free to do so. If he writes something that amounts to an angry, non-sensical rant then he should expect some responses to be angry and non-sensical. None of the reactions to Miller’s rant should be surprising, anytime someone in the public eye expresses their view people are going to run to their keyboards and react as their personalities dictate.

No one said anything about throwing Miller in jail for his comments. That’s a pretty lame strawman. If Millar defends Miller for not doing anything wrong, logically he’d have to defend the response to them (since Miller isn’t entitled to more rights than anyone else).

No one is free from criticism, whether they’re a legend (which Miller is, IMO) or not.

Here’s the thing: Frank Miller said some pretty inflammatory, controversial statements which–under the First Amendment–he is perfectly entitled to do, regardless of how personally insulting or outrageous it might be. Likewise, a person reading Frank Miller’s statements is–under the First Amendment–perfectly entitled to vehemently disagree with him to the point of boycotting his work, especially if they feel morally outraged by his statements. Furthermore, the Occupy Movement is–under the First Amendment–perfectly entitled to protest against crony capitalism and the fact that bankers and investment firms–in collusion with members of the Federal Government, particularly Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac–profited off of toxic loans and bad mortgages and how those in the upper business and political class continue to do so, thus also inspiring moral outrage and righteous indignation. Likewise, it is perfectly acceptable to get morally outraged and have righteous indignation towards police brutality and excessive force against protestors. Or when there were reports of racial slurs being voiced at Tea-Party rallies.

But where is the moral outrage and righteous indignation when reports surfaced of people encamped at the Occupy Camps were being raped and sexually assaulted? http://thefeministwire.com/2011/11/occupy-rape-culture/
Where is the moral outrage and righteous indignation when, because of repeated incidents of sexual assault, Occupy Wall Street, was forced to erect “Women Only Safe Zones” in order to protect the female protestors? http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/occupy-wall-street-builds-tent-afe-house-protect-female-protesters-article-1.972546#ixzz1cq0XMS2l
Where is the moral outrage and righteous indignation when it was reported that various Occupy Movement organizers told their fellow protestors NOT to report crime within the encampments? http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/oct/28/picket-occupy-protesters-relegated-stop-snitching-/
Where is the moral outrage and righteous indignation when street vendors were assaulted at an Occupy Los Angeles rally? http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/
Where is the moral outrage and righteous indignation when one of the protestors at Occupy Oakland was murdered, reportedly by suspects who also were believed to be protestors themselves? http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/shooting-victim-tied-to-occupy-oakland.html
And where was the moral outrage when protestors had their belongings stolen by other protestors? http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/criminal_occupation_oh3CnKANUqYHrGPCaZaLRK

To their credit, some of the Occupy Movement have called for non-violence and have done their best to self-correct the problems with their camps, but obviously city officials in various parts of the country felt it wasn’t enough, hence why they’ve now decided to move in and attempt to close the camps down.

Now you might say that these kind of things are bound to happen in large gatherings such as these, or that isolated incidents don’t reflect the protestors overall or detract from their message. Maybe so, but regardless of the number or amount of these incidents, I would think one should not turn a blind eye to them simply because one happens to agree with the Occupy Movement and against what Miller said about them.

Frank Miller has freedom of speech but not of insulting. If someone calls me s.o.b. I have the right to reply with the same kind of insult. Just because Miller is a comics legend he isn’t above criticism. And Mark Millar loves a searchlight and his attitude pro-Frank Miller is his way to call attention to himself. What a ego, Mr. Millar!

FRANK MILLER IS RIGHT!

Miller is right in a lot of ways. I think if he had said what he said in a nicer way, it simply wouldn’t have been Frank Miller (Most of you have read–and enjoyed–his work. Are you really surprised?). What’s really interesting is how the Occupiers have been proving him even more right since he posted his thoughts (on the East coast, anyway).

“Now you might say that these kind of things are bound to happen in large gatherings such as these, or that isolated incidents don’t reflect the protestors overall or detract from their message. Maybe so, but regardless of the number or amount of these incidents, I would think one should not turn a blind eye to them simply because one happens to agree with the Occupy Movement and against what Miller said about them.”

Give me an f-ing break.

Miller : ” ‘Occupy; is NOTHING but a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists ”

He’s condemning EVERYONE who is protesting. They’re all pro-islamist terrorist lovers as far as he’s concerned.

Good God…let Frank Miller say whatever he likes…as long as no one lets him within miles of making THE SPIRIT 2!

I said another site that I agree with him some what. Why because sadly it’s more about what they are and what is happening in the camps then the message. Even that what is there end game? They want more hand outs and more taxes? Really the only way to do that is to elect more democrats. Then what happens to these people when they become 1%? People say system is fixed. I don’t believe that but if you want to know why it would be. Look at the unions (Car Industry anyone), the taxes, and regulations. I made the statement about how empire state building was built in a year during great depression. Now it take several years before it would even start.

JT Molloy @ November 15, 2011 at 9:31 am

[Cyber-Mob my arse. Frank called OWS “rapists”. Is this seriously worth defending?]

Rapes are occurring at several OWS camps. Female protesters themselves are increasingly going public with how they’ve been assaulted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFJ51npBmK0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrohU71S6So&feature=related

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/zuccotti_park_big_top_ilBy4VfYIwDGt2I1rM33vL

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/we-handle-it-internally-another-possible-sexual-assault-at-occupy-wall-street/

While not all OWS protesters are rapists, the protesters have not been turning over the true prevents to the cops either. That makes the OWS protesters accomplices who are worthy of Miller’s vitriol.

Derek – November 15, 2011 at 2:29 pm

[Come home Frank.]

I hate to break this to you but Miller’s comic book work indicates he was leaning to the right for years. So, it was a matter of when not if he would rip OWS a few new ones. Blogger Ron Capshaw explains:

But in this graphic novel [“The Dark Knight Returns"], Miller has a mob scene brought about by a nuclear exchange with the Soviets. They take to the streets, looting, raping and partying.

Sound familiar?

Miller’s response was not to see their side of the story, or morally equate their actions with any right-wing street groups (there are none in the comic), but to have his ailing Batman mount up and stop the madness. He quells the revolt, leading one police officer who vowed to arrest him to holster her weapon and realize that the vigilante is the only thing between safety and anarchy.

Miller’s most trenchant criticism, though, is reserved for a government peopled by liberals who, even after the mayor has his throat ripped out by one of the criminals, still want to negotiate.

For those who cite this comic as proof that he has lost his way should re-read this comic.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/rcapshaw/2011/11/14/frank-millers-occupy-critique-breaks-ranks-with-comic-book-nation/

As with musicians and actors, I don’t give a crap about the politics of my comic book writers. It’s not why I buy their books, it’s not why I show up on Wednesday. Is Miller hardly the only comic creator with odd views? NOT HARDLY.

Do I disagree with what Miller said? I’m never a fan of labeling large swaths of people pejoratives (just like it’s easy to pretend that anyone who doesn’t like Barack Obama must be racist because he’s Black, not all of OWS are rapists; I know why people do that, but that doesn’t mean it’s not intellectually dishonest and cheap).

Do I think he’s a monster for expressing his opinion? No. I’m always wary of large groups of people pretending that they speak for me when they’ve never bothered to get to know me or my views, especially those claiming to speak for everyone in the country outside of anyone who makes over $320,000 a year (and then I guess you make an “enemies list”; I was having a conversation with my father about the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and how their process of selecting who “enemies of the state” were degenerated to the point where if you wore glasses, you were considered affluent and were executed; when we start classifying people by ‘affluence’ or by what people have or possess, given the general self-interest and greed of humanity at large, that’s an awfully slippery slope to start down).

OWS is the inverse-Miller – he claimed that “OWS were all ________”; OWS is looking at me, claiming “we’re all _________, including you.” Well, I don’t agree that either represents me (not that it appears either cares about my opinion). I didn’t let the Tea Party do it, I’m not going to let OWS do it, mostly because I sincerely doubt the transparency on both sides.

And it’s not a crime to *not* want OWS to speak for you.

As for the boycott, as Miller hardly puts out any comics these days, it’s real easy to avoid purchasing his work (almost exceedingly so). It’s hard to boycott no output and as others have said, chances are if you were offended, you weren’t buying “Holy Terror” to begin with. I wasn’t offended and I know I wasn’t buying it. And as some who hated him pointed out, he is indeed part of that 1% injustice league worthy of scorn, derision, etc., even though Miller is hardly a trust fund baby (one blogger said he made some like $450k last year, so wealthy enough to be 1%, but not obscene).

But the moment we decide we need to *punish* people for speaking their minds, when they engage in no criminal act, when they do nothing but write words on their blog, and you’re okay with that…you should probably be afraid of the world you live in.

You know the crazy thing about the OWS crowd and class warfare in general is they seem to think that the rich is out to somehow destroy the middle class by squandering all of the money and making everyone in this country poor. That is one of the most ridiculous lines of thinking that I have ever heard. Do the 99% not understand that if the top one percent held all of the money and if the middle class went away that the “Rich” could not maintain? Our economy is mostly incumbent on a strong middle class aka the consumer class. They buy all sorts of shit! If everyone else in this country was dirt poor, these large corporate entities would not have people buying their goods and services and would eventually go defunct. Then everyone in the US would just be poor.

I agree with the sentiment of wondering why anyone cares, either about what he said, or what some reaction to it should be. He’s not in any position of power – the man is a writer/artist of entertainment. Outside of the comic book world, he has vague name recognition at best. The fact that there is a legitimate argument that he’s past his prime (and I actually enjoyed DKSA) is just more reason. Al Capp was a fluke, but he also managed to stay relevent and produce interesting work.

I’m a moderate fan of Miller’s work, but I really couldn’t care less what the man thinks about anything. True, I have been disappointed when a writer/artist/whatever of something I enjoy has some wildly different point of view than I do, but big whoop, I get over it because it’s ultimately meaningless. This is a non-issue. It has nothing to do with the “Occupy” movement. You might as well ask Max Weinberg what he thinks about global warming.

I think you idiots should actually read the news. Millers assessment of OWS flea baggers being rapists may be a generalization, but not completely inaccurate. OWS consists mostly of lazy ass whiners that have never had to work for a damn thing in their life. I am pissed about all the damn bail outs and some bankers giving themselves bonuses with tax payer money (TARP), but defecating on cop cars, violence, raping women, and all the antisemitism and racism that has occurred at OWS sites across America is unacceptable. OWS is out of touch with reality.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/11/occupy-philly-rape-arrest.html

At least Millar understands that everyone has the right to an opinion and the stating thereof. As opposed to some of the online comics community. While Millar disagrees politically with Miller, I’m all for criticizing these idiotic occupy (fill in the blank) groups. Seriously, what did these morons accomplish? Nothing. They were militant anarchists out to get on TV. They terrorized downtown residents and those visiting downtown. They made makeshift weapons to fight the police. The “community” provided a breeding ground for drug sales and violence. And for what? To tell a nebulous Wall Street that they’re upset? Those slick-suited idiots sat back and laughed, if they paid attention at all.

But there is a group that sent a very clear message to the money people. And they did it without “community leaders” and “organizers.” They did it without violence and weapons. They did it without organizing or protesting or marching. When Bank of America and other banks said they would charge customers for service individual American consumers picked up the phone or drove to their bank branches and they registered their dissatisfaction. They said they were upset. And BofA backed down, as did other banks. The People spoke. Granted, that doesn’t happen as much as it should. But the message was direct and specific and hit the mark with deadly accuracy. The People hit Wall Street in its collective pocketbook. I know that the idiots of the world will say that the protesters made a real difference; that the guys in the ivory towers heard the message. But the only message to register was the one sent to the banks by its customers.

If we want to stop Wall Street we have to deal with Congress first. Wall Street is just a bunch of 3-year-olds grabbing greedily for all they can get. It’s Congress, though, (and all our recent presidents) who enable that disastrous and destructive behavior. But we won’t be able to fix the problem until we stop being This Group or That Group; we won’t fix the problem until we unite against the people who abuse their positions and mishandle our money.

So just look at whats been happening in Vanocuver’s Occupy protest. At least two heroin overdoses, one of which was lethal, and complete disarray. The protestors have become a joke in that city. I would venture to guess that things are just as lost in other cities as well. The people still at these protests have been distilled down to the lowest common denominator. There may be people that mean well, but for the most part, their contributions have been negated by homeless, jobless drug addicted squee-gee kids. These type of people do not represent me, as part of the 99% and the longer the protests go on the way they are, the less likely anything productive will come from it all.
Can someone please stand up and lead? I have a job, and I know how tough things are and I support change, but I do not want to be associated with the pond scum I see at the local Occupation.

Um, who’s saying Miller should be thrown in jail? People are calling him out for the vitriol HE spewed. I don’t see what Millar’s problem is, unless he is blinded by the fact he’s such a huge fan of Miller’s work (and the guy himself, I guess). You call people “louts” and “rapists,” and compared their movement to poop, what do you expect to hear in response?

If you respond with the same sort of tirade you are just as bad.

How should we respond to such outbursts then? Use the tried and true internet response – don’t feed the trolls. Don’t give it any oxygen.

Just look at all the comments on this and the other Robot 6 story. If we’re keeping score based on that, Frank Miller won.

For the record I love his work. Don’t agree with his politics. As an adult I a can separate the two.

Personally I don’t understand the “Occupy Movement”. I read the wiki page and I still don’t understand it. I don’t think the protestors themselves know what they are protesting as a group. Everyone of them thinks it’s something different. It saddens me to see the crimes being committed (by a minority) as part of these movements and the London riots. As civilized societies we should aim for higher standards.

Even before this crazy talk I was not buying anything from both of these overrated self-aggrandizing snarks.
Hearing Millar call this horrific is funny. I heard one of his comics had insemination bomb rape in it. What a classy guy.

Of course he has a right to his opinion. But if you call someone a thief and a rapist you cant expect him to buy your products anymore. This is not “disagreeing” but vicious name-calling.

It’s sad to see a once brilliant writer turn into an angry old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

I do not like the verbiage that Frank Miller used, it reminded me of a drunken induced late night email, or tweet, or text one sends when the filter from brain to fingers is gone. On the other hand the whole movement has become a farce. I believe that the concept of the movement is true but completely derailed. I work full time, and scrape by and feel that I am part of the 99 percent. Corporations can essentially do what they want and the government allows the people to be screwed. The fact that Fannie May executives are getting multi million dollar bonuses, thanks to the government bailout, and in turn thanks to the tax payers, is ludicrous. How are the executives even able to accept the bonuses without realizing that that money came from taxpayers without feeling guilt. Some might, but I bet you the majority won’t. The crimes that have happened at the various sites is disgusting, and a flagrant disregard for what this movement should be about, and those that are guilty should be punished to the full extent of the law. Frank Miller should not sling shit at a whole movement when what they are protesting is so blatantly going on in front of the worlds eyes. Wake up Frank and get your self righteous head out of your asshole.

First, I love Mark, but what creator called for an economic sanction? None that I could see. I certainly didn’t. It does seem to be railing against something that didn’t happen.

Second, I can say emphatically that the emotion I experience when I see a legendary creator act like a bigoted idiot is not, ‘glee.’

And third, I am happy to reiterate my opinion that saying Islam is the enemy of America is pure bullshit and it doesn’t matter to me one bit if that upsets someone. Frank’s entitled to his opinions, no one said he isn’t..

Many disagree with that opinion and think it’s ill-informed tripe. I don’t care what he wrote and drew, anti-Islamic hysteria is a far more common problem than anti-Frank Miller hysteria.

Gail

So the guy who created The Dark Knight Returns and 300 has a fascist mindset. Who knew?

alekesam@hotmail.com

November 16, 2011 at 4:16 am

Gail: How about taking the high road and not stoop to name calling yourself…y’know, like the bigoted idiot? ;)

I disagree wholly with Frank Miller’s comments, but I would never boycott his work. Now, a lot of his recent work does not interest me at all, or I find repellent, and so I will not buy anyway. But “The Dark Knight Returns”, “Batman: Year One,” his Daredevil work, etc., remain seminal works in the field and deserve the respect and acclaim they have attracted. And, of course, Miller has the right to say what he wants to say, just as others have the right to respond to his comments.

Personally, I make a point of trying to separate an artist’s work from his/her personal conduct. For example, I find Roman Polanski, as a human being, utterly disgusting. But I will still see his films, which are quite good. I don’t have any use for Mel Gibson, but I will see his films that interest me. Similarly, if Miller writes something that I find interesting and artistically compelling, I will buy it. This does not change the fact that I think he is a paranoid and slightly racist crank who seems to have gone off the rails with 9-11. But, to my mind, that is a totally separate issue.

I already commented on another site about this, but I’ll say something here as well. Miller was just asking for it plain and simple. His rant was pure fascist bullshit, and now he’s being called on it. He didn’t even bother to get some of his facts straight before making broad mean spirited statements about an organization he seems very ill-informed about.

Instead of actually going to one of the occupations to face them in person, Miller is content to post a belittling rant on his blog while the OWS people put their asses on the line for what they believe. MY principled and cerebral Batman would be the first to verbally dress down Miller (maybe even bat-a-rang his ass), and then support these common American folks in their fight against a corrupt oligarchy.

But then that’s just me. Oh, and people are entitled to their I.N.F.O.R.M.E.D opinions. Otherwise they’re just blowing hot air….. which is exactly what Miller’s rant amounts to.

Millar & Miller = The Hollywood Boys

VERY RICH —> MARK MILLAR & FRANK MILLER = CAPITALISTIC CHEERLEADERS.

I wonder what the poorer versions ( IE Younger) would have to say about what they became.

I like a lot of the work by these writers and I have not enjoyed some of their work, so I do not judge this discussion by any personal opinion of their work as artists. I agree that Miller has the right to speak his mind but Millar seems to imply that his critics should not speak their own. He especially is opposed to the idea of a boycott and feels people should separate the creator from his words. People cannot do that and they should not be criticized for doing so. Was it wrong to boycott South Africa during apartheid? Yes, I kow that’s an extreme example. Can a person really look at Mel Gibson the same way anymore? The BEST way to show your opposition to something or someone that you find distaseful is to not support them with your money. It is certainly better than being violent. When people don’t speak out against things, we are called “mindless sheep” or worse. Now we are told not to speak up when outraged. Let Miller speak his mind (or not) and let us speak ours. Freedom of expression in all manners (including a boycott) should be equal to all.

ayeball –

Few people believe that Wall Street is “being evil on purpose” and “out to destroy the middle class”. No one is evil in their own head. What they are is selfish and extremely uncaring of others. They act reclessly, they get GOVERNMENT HELP in the form of the bailouts, they spend this money in bonuses and golden parachutes and no one is punished.

If this is not “evil” behavior, then you must admit that it’s extremely cynical, selfish, and short-sighted. They don’t aim to destroy the middle-class, but the result of their actions is an economic crisis that has caused many to lose their jobs and slide into the poverty line.

A related problem America is facing is that right-wingers believe that ANY criticism of capitalism amounts to treason, even when the flaws are gaping wounds that any child can see. And anyone who points the flaws is compared to Stalin or Pol Pot. It’s a sort of black and white vision that if you don’t believe 100% in capitalism, then you must want complete government control.

I don’t believe in boycotts. But guys like Mel Gibson and Roman Polanski still create interesting work. Frank Miller hasn’t written a comic I’ve enjoyed in the last 10 years.

I think a condition to any bailout should be that the company cannot give bonuses to executives for “x” number of years. A response that I have received is that if NO bonuses are given, then the best will leave for other companies and the bailed-out company only has inferior workers and faces continued economic woes, defeating the purpose of the bailout. I still can’t accept that, though. When my company was going through tough times, we all stuck it out despite not getting bonuses or even raises. Same salary for 3 years.

I’m not saying that this should be everyone’s opinion, but I cannot personally separate the creator from his work. Roman Polanski is a rapist at worst, a child molester at best. I cannot watch his work even if it is great. Maybe you have to be a parent to get that. A few years back, people said that despite the fact that Chris Benoit murdered his wife and son, he was still one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. I don’t get how you separate the two aspects of that person. Don’t differentiate him from Polanski because Benoit was a wrestler. He entertained millions of people, probably more than Polanski ever did. Is is different because with Polanski it was “just rape”, not murder, or that it was a long time ago? We’re way off Miller now but it all comes back to everyone has to make their own mind up about how to view someone and how to react. None of us should be telling the other how to think or act.

The bottom line here is plain and simple – Millar simply defends Miller’s stand against the opposition on the basis of free speech and expressions. Millar does not however necessarily agree with Miller’s viewpoint, just the latter’s right as a member of a democratic society. Millar is correct that a democratic society without opposition is no democracy at all! Emotions run very high instead of applying cold analyses in discerning important issues! Just ignore Miller, for Pete’s sake! Ignore his works, if that’s the case! But to shush him just to ride with the majority if absolutely unacceptable to the democratic spirit! Millar’s words speak volume on how mature he is in the discourse of democracy! Go Millar!

The separation between art and the artist is often a tough one. It’s disappointing to read that Eric Clapton was once a supporter of Enoch Powell in the UK, for example.

I’m not interested in reading “Holy Terror” but I wasn’t interested in reading “The Big Lie” when it came out a week or so before the anniversary of 9/11 either. That said, I’m not going to suddenly burn any issues of Daredevil or Batman or that issue of Marvel Team Up that introduced Xi’an Coy Manh, or (in the case of Rick Veitch’s past work) issues of Supreme, 1963, the Question or Swamp Thing.

I’ve met a few comics creators whose personal politics skew conservatively. For the most part I don’t need to care about their personal politics in my individual interactions with them. All i care about, for the most part, is a pleasant interacton for a few moments. Should they care that I’m a Muslim and a liberal? Probably not.

AnalogousGumdropDecoder

November 16, 2011 at 4:42 pm

The power to boycott is one of few powers the average person has in a capitalist society. Boycotting the work of someone because you disagree with them politically or find them hateful or any other reason is not the same as throwing them in jail. Freedom of speech means that Frank Miller and Hank Williams, Jr. can speak their minds without being imprisoned. They are not constitutionally guaranteed the rights to sell loads of comics or have their music played on televised sports programs. No one is obligated to buy Miller’s comics, and we are free to opt out for any reason. I am baffled by how often I have seen this type of intellectual confusion in political discourse lately.

Hollywood whore defends Hollywood whore.

Rene-

It is refreshing that a response from someone holding an opposite point of view does not degenerate into a hate filled name calling contest.

There is on point that we can agree on and that is the government in no way should take the stance that a business is too big to fail.

And yes I am a proponent of Capitalism. I believe in a system that rewards those that have the gumption to succeed. That’s not to say that it is utterly reprehensible for a company that is in a large amount of debt to award large bonuses or “Golden Parachutes” (Fannie May, Freddie Mac). But having a stance of wealth redistribution carte blanche is just wrong. Not every wealthy individual is like Uncle Scrooge wading through their money bin. I would say the majority of them worked very hard to earn their success. As for those that game the system, prosecute the bastards to the fullest! I’m not rich, never have been but I am thankful that I live in a system that allows me to try to succeed or fail on my own merits.

I wish I could say with absolute certitude that life was fair, but it’s not. Never has been never will be. The truth is I was one of the collateral damaged that suffered as a result of these hard economic times, I lost my job. i could have taken up with fellow protesters and raged against the machine, but I have a family. So rather than looking for someone to blame, I looked to pick my self up and go chase my dream. Now I do what I love. Sure I don’t make the same coin that I used to, but I feel like I have a new beginning. I didn’t wait for a job to come to me, I simply made own job, in a way fulfilled my own destiny.

I firmly believe that when one door closes, another one opens. I’m glad that Capitalism is there to allow me to choose to walk through that door or not.

csurge – November 16, 2011 at 5:26 am

“But then that’s just me. Oh, and people are entitled to their I.N.F.O.R.M.E.D opinions. Otherwise they’re just blowing hot air….. which is exactly what Miller’s rant amounts to.”

There have been OVER 250 acts of rape, murder, pimping, drug dealing and vandalism tied to to the OWS crowd:

http://bigjournalism.com/jjmnolte/2011/10/28/occupywallstreet-the-rap-sheet-so-far/

Not surprisingly, even mayors of liberal cities are cracking down on OWS camps:

http://www.mrc.org/biasalert/2011/20111116012129.aspx

Miller’s comments were tactless but they were still well informed and based on real evidence. If anything some OWS apologists are the ones who are uniformed on the bandwagon they’ve hopped on.

Real evidence my ass. 250 incidents among a group made up of tens of thousands isn’t reason enough to classify an entire movement as miscreant. And these incidents occurred late in the occupations… after the police got involved. The current Federally coordinated crackdown stinks of a setup, in my opinion. The occupiers were drawing too much attention to the crimes of the financial elite, so they had to go by hook or by crook. I have to go now, but I’ll continue with my response tomorrow.

@Fred2, I am not sure those are the most, um, objective sites you’ve linked to there! I have heard of some rapes, sexual assaults, crimes, etc., at and around the various Occupy movements, but 250 is WAY above any accounting I’ve come across. Regardless, OF COURSE those things are awful, and the perps need to be caught/stopped/punished.

However, dismissing the whole movement based upon a relatively small number of “bad apples” is pretty weak (as Miller did, and you seem to want to do). Funny how Cain was ahead in the polls, and then what happens? All these sexual harrassment claimants start popping up. Problem solved: he has dropped in more recent polls. I can’t really see how this attempt to paint the Occupy protesters in the worst light possible by focusing on a relatively small set of jerks is much better (one could argue that it’s fairer to target Cain, as he’s one man, and he either did or did not harrass those women, while it’s pretty obvious that only a small number of protesters have raped or committed any real crimes – some have done nothing wrong, yet are being tarred with the Broad Brush).

I don’t know Frank Miller, but I am guessing that his rant was meant to provoke a response, and I’ll bet he’s tough enough to take it as well as dish it out. So he’s gotten called a few names? Big deal. He did it too, so he can face the music. If not, he should really think about what he’s floating out there. If people choose not to support him by buying his work, what’s wrong with that? Again, that’s a risk if you go out and insult your fans (at least a group of them) or potential fans. Sheesh.

I guess part of what I was getting at above with the Cain/OWS comparison was that it’s often seen that, when people’s arguments against ideas they don’t like flag, some folks will instead insult the people positing those ideas. Can’t knock Cain down in the polls by arguing against his ideas? Find a way to undermine the man. Same with the OWS people. Call them names and exaggerate aspects about them … hey, if it gets people to stop paying attention to them, all the better, right? Who cares if it’s underhanded?

Random Encounter

November 22, 2011 at 1:01 am

While free speech is vital for realised freedom, I have to dissagree Millar on that the hostile respons to Miller’s comment on the occupy-movement is undeserved. Miller called the the entire movement a collection of criminals, he even said they where a bunch of rapists. That is mud slinging, that’s the kind of trash we might expect from Glen Beck, but from a person working in a medium that has such a past with being attacked with unfair, untrue claims it disgusts me that Miller would call a group of political activists such things.

Googam son of Goom

November 22, 2011 at 2:09 pm

“MIller was always a homophobic, misogynist, rightwing apologist. Why it took this long for people to clue in, I have no idea.” Exactly Paul. Exactly.

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