Robot 6

Comics A.M. | Alan Moore responds to Frank Miller’s Occupy remarks

Alan Moore

Creators | Watchmen writer Alan Moore responds to recent comments made by The Dark Knight Returns creator Frank Miller: “I think that the Occupy movement is, in one sense, the public saying that they should be the ones to decide who’s too big to fail. It’s a completely justified howl of moral outrage and it seems to be handled in a very intelligent, non-violent way, which is probably another reason why Frank Miller would be less than pleased with it. I’m sure if it had been a bunch of young, sociopathic vigilantes with Batman make-up on their faces, he’d be more in favour of it. We would definitely have to agree to differ on that one.”  [Honest Publishing]

Conventions | Tom Spurgeon files a lengthy report from the Brooklyn Comics and Graphics Festival, held Saturday in New York City. [The Comics Reporter]

Ashes

Creators | Uncanny X-Men writer Kieron Gillen comments on the use of sites like Kickstarter to fund comics projects through the lens of Alex de Campi and Jimmy Broxton’s Ashes: “I think that Kickstarter or – if you’re not a yank – Indie Go Go is the single biggest new thing to be considered by a working creative this year. And not just comic creatives. Digital is something people have been chewing over for years now – and I suspect it’s going to be next year when we see some more movement there – but this has surprised a lot of people, and lead to a cheerily wild-west vibe to it all. People running Kickstarters are still trying to work out how to do this thing, and balance all sorts of questions of personal moral integrity. And this is important to do, just because when you don’t, things go bad quickly and you’re risking tarring the very concept of kickstarter-esque funded projects.” [Kieron Gillen]

Creators | CNN profiles legendary MAD cartoonist Al Jaffee. [CNN]

Creators | Gerry Alanguilan talks about his graphic novel Elmer. [Philippine Daily Inquirer]

The Last Dragon

Creators | Rebecca Guay discusses her Dark Horse adaptation of Jane Yolen’s short story “The Last Dragon.” [Sequential Tart]

Creators | Box Brown discusses his career and approach to making comics, among other topics. [The Comics Reporter]

Comics | Deb Aoki previews some of the manga we can expect to see in the coming year. [About.com]

Marketing | Johanna Draper Carlson, always quick to call out bad marketing tactics, takes a Kickstarter creator to task for not responding well to criticism. The creator responds in the comments; you be the judge. [Comics Worth Reading]

Commentary | Chris Murphy looks back at “four incredible years” with Marvel’s Hercules. [ComicsAlliance]

Commentary | David Anderson looks at the first issue of John Byrne’s Cold War. [Spandexless]

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24 Comments

Hell froze over. I just agreed with something Alan Moore said.

well, overall I think Moore & Miller would agree on the notion of “who decides whose too big too fail….”

….but many in the Occupy Movement want to give bailouts just them same.

I would agree with ANYONE if they agree to not bailout ANYONE who over-extends their credit DUE TO THEIR OWN FAULT. that is whether its a bank giving out loans to people they know cant pay back, or a student who picked a field of study that isnt panning out & now has a school loan to pay back. if either took out a loan/made a bad investment, and now cant repay it, I cant feel sory for either of them.

Whether its the jerks who created the TARP Reform and Accountability Act or the Occupy Movement, BOTH CREATE/CREATED DEBT that all of us are now stuck paying back.

also, in some cities, there was violence. Not by all Occupy Movement folks but some.

And see, lu, you hit on some points that nearly EVERYBODY (including Miller and Moore) seem to ignore. The Occupy movement has good and bad points

I guess that concept is just way too complex to understand

Umm, what debts have Occupy folks created?

lu:

no one should be faulted for getting an education. if you can’t see the difference between taking advantage of economic loopholes and trying to get an education for yourself (and one which you will pay back, not get ‘bailed out’ from) then…… yeah.

re: Moore & Millers opinions: they’re part of the 1%, keep that in mind…

Frank Miller hasn’t produced anything of value in 20 years. Likewise for Alan Moore, who incidentally, talks to a 3000 year old snake god living in his toilet. This whole conversation is so far outside the realm of relevance to me that it makes my head spin. Who cares?

“Frank Miller hasn’t produced anything of value in 20 years. Likewise for Alan Moore”

While I’m inclined to agree with regards to Miller’s writing (I still think he’s a fine illustrator) I’d say that he’s written some excellent work in the last twenty years: he’s completed From Hell (even if it was started before 1991) but he’s also written Promethea and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

That said, while Moore might be a little bit of an idealist regarding the Occupy movement, he’s fairly spot on about Miller’s recent work.

I’d say that he’s written some excellent work in the last twenty years:

Correction: I’d say that Moore has written some excellent work in the last twenty years.

“And see, lu, you hit on some points that nearly EVERYBODY (including Miller and Moore) seem to ignore. The Occupy movement has good and bad points

I guess that concept is just way too complex to understand”

I blame that on the American encouragement of black-and-white world-views
I mean, you only have two political parties for crying out loud!

I blame that on the American encouragement of black-and-white world-views
I mean, you only have two political parties for crying out loud!

Really? You don’t see black-and-white world-views being advocated by pundits and politicians in countries with multi-party systems?

America’s two-party system is a product of the electoral process. We have historically only had brief periods where there were third or fourth parties in play. Obviously countries with a more parliamentary system of government tend to have more parties on the ballot, but it can also mean that a ruling government can be forced into inaction on important issues by a minority coalition partner that only enjoys 10% support.

@Ian Thal: I take it that you see government inaction as a bad thing…

Ian – I see your point. But, living in America, I now see Fox News intravenously turning people into mush-minded zombies, and it runs on a 24-hour loop

Yeah, the 2-party system is truly strangling America. Every election we’re offered a choice between voting for the party of Confused Wimps or the party of Nazi Lite.

98 percent of the time, I’m not voting FOR anybody but voting AGAINST the worse evil.

Cannot agree with Moore’s assessemnt that Comics are centre – right.

Very left or centre left at minimum

Very intelligent?!? Non-violent?!? The #occupyfail crowd?

Yeah, Moore’s always done drugs, but he has to be on some serious stuff to buy that…

I almost completely disagreed with Miller’s comments, but Moore’s characterization of OWS as “very intelligent” is completely delusional.

These extreme partisan comments are disgusting. People like Miller and Moore should be old enough to know better. Instead their respective positions are completely predictable and borderline delusional.

OWS is a diverse movement that last a lot of good points. It also has its fair share of idiots. And, actually, it seems that the idiots are more than a “fringe”. It’s maybe about 33% idiot. That doesn’t mean the movement should be totally disregarded (Miller, I’m looking at you). But to act as if OWS is just perfect, the way Moore does…? There have been crimes and rapes and even a few murders committed by OWS, Alan, though maybe the stupid partisan media you consume doesn’t tell you these things. By and large, the message of the movement seems schizophrenic, because there is a sizable number of idiots in it. That does not mean that the impetus for OWS is wrong or stupid. But it’s impossible for a rational person to simply paint them with a broad brush and say that they’re just perfect.

“It’s maybe about 33% idiot. ”

That’s a pretty good number. Most stuff averages out around 50%. The Tea Party was up to 85% idiot for a while there.

While OWS may be a “howl of moral outrage”, to pretend it can be distilled down into “they decide who should be too big to fail” is an extremely rosy world view and ignores a LOT of the people involved in the movement (I could see why he would pick it, as it tends to be the easiest to get the general public behind, but it’s certainly not everyone’s mantra, not by a long shot). It’s certainly not what the anarchists involved in OWS want. It’s certainly not what the labor unions want (considering some of the “too big to fail” companies like GM employ their members in greater percentages than in other industries). I can go on and on. So moral outrage? Yes. Justified and reasonable and easy to distill? Not hardly. But Moore is also an admitted anarchist and thinks he’s only centre-left (who knew that anarchism was the new moderate left?), so apparently his rosy summations aren’t limited to OWS, but also include his view of himself.

@karl, while I agree no one should be faulted for getting an education, a liberal arts degree has NEVER guaranteed employment in a liberal arts field. And if a student doesn’t realize until the end of 4th-6th year that their diploma gets them the opportunity to vie for a job in a small field with low turnover and high competition, then they are naive or haven’t been paying attention. That doesn’t stop people from getting philosphy degrees, or English degrees, but their expectations are out of whack (and I’ve seen numerous people complaining with their “we are 99%” photos and testimonials that blame others for their own degree choices and lack of employment opportunities in their respective fields).

I specifically remember a young woman protesting in New York who was a student in Columbia pursuing her masters in some liberal arts field (as was her significant other) and she was complaining about how they were living hand to mouth as she went to school, though “big business” didn’t make her apply to Columbia, didn’t make her live in one of the more expensive cities on the planet, didn’t force Columbia to not provide her sufficient student aid, didn’t make her boyfriend do the same thing, all for a degree plan which wouldn’t actually guarantee her any greater employment than a bachelors degree would. And all of this was not her fault, not even Columbia’s fault (though the cost of a college education is SOARING and is own peripherally related to “big business”), it was the fault of banks, student loan groups, etc., for not supporting *her* dreams and choices with *their* money.

the great poobah

December 6, 2011 at 4:05 am

both OWS and Tea Party have good and bad, but the Tea Party had to PAY to have their rallies, and when it was done, went back to their jobs.

OWS, not so much.
I will say that OWS started out well, but now wanting to forgive student loans is just one of the “bail-outs” that they are in favor of. they just want the bail-outs to go to themselves, as opposed to wall street.
myself, i am against ALL bail-outs. wall street or student loans.

OWS may have fringe elements, BUT compared to that other movement, the Tea Party, it is more an expression of regular people. While Fox and the rightwing has tried to tie OWS with their bogeyman George Soros (what’s more evil than a billionaire who advocates against his own self-interest, right?!) and there are nutty people in the OWS movement (the conspiracy theorists who always mess things up for the sane people), it is a real grassroots movement while the Tea Party was orchestrated by Freedom Works and bussed in people who were coached to spout nonsense about death panels, healthcare reform and ‘taking back’ their country. Still, I hoped that once in office they might do something constructive, but it turns the Tea Party are just more extreme Republicans. Who doesn’t remember the likes of Sharon Angle who proclaimed that she would only reveal her political positions after being elected?! That’s what we got with the Tea Party, a less informed group of fanatics who are so unaware they thought the debt ceiling was an issue to stall and debate on (it’s debt we already owe, not a budget debate you maroons!). The OWS movement is clearly not interested in anything other than expressing discontent and that puzzles people who wonder if it can function to change power, most likely by joining as elites don’t just step down, but tend to assimilate movements. The OWS group does seem focused on banks and the very real disparity of wealth that coincides with Republican tax cuts targeted for the rich (while hiding behind some meager cuts for the rest of the population) and defense spending hikes that have created a deficit and debt which they now blame on social security and medicare. Basically, the GOP has pounded the middle class, demonized teachers and now cops and firemen as ‘takers’ while lionizing the richest people as ‘job creators’ even though most employers are small and medium size business owners. Add to this their hostility towards unions that gave us work safety standards, decent pay (no, corporations aren’t going to pay workers a fair wage if they aren’t pressured to do so and average salaries have frozen since the 1980s) and child labor laws and so on. When a small group is doing great and everybody else is struggling, there is something and it isn’t all entitlement or laziness or all the other red herrings. There are plenty of unproductive rich people who are holding onto their capital or investing overseas and they should be taxed higher. If you create American jobs, great lower taxes. If you do nothing or send them overseas, tax ‘em higher. Plus, these kids want education that doesn’t leave them indebted for the rest of their lives and enslaved to corporations yet again (somehow the rightwing things corporations are more benevolent than govt, which is rather comical). Want a productive society? Make certain education fields free to study like science, math, information technology and so on. We wouldn’t have to resort to importing engineers anymore and math whizzes wouldn’t end up going to work for Wall St. to create destructive derivatives that only benefit a few people and wreck more havoc than produce anything useful. The fact that this country can spend more on defense than several other big spenders combined and yet can’t invest in education (it’s free in countries like Germany where students aren’t walking around in debt because they wanted to be educated), research and development and NASA shows just how much our priorities are way off. The Chinese and Indians are no doubt delighted that we’ve decided to become a finance country that will simply let them lead the way with technology and making real things though.

Johnny,

For someone complaining about “less informed fanatics”, you sure throw out a WHOLE lot to dispute, not just your tenuous, disingenuous summation of the various stances within the Tea Party movement (some of which, including the anti-bailout message, were co-opted word for word by the Occupy Wall Street, who then tried to pretend it was something new and exciting when people were already protesting it a year and half ago and they couldn’t be bothered to support it then, but that didn’t stop OWS from throwing a near-tantrum in a non-election year).

Or your “meager” tax cut evaluation – the tax cuts averaged 2-3% per year in both 2001 and 2003 for all tax brackets -except the lowest, which was 0% to begin with- not some sweetheart deal for the top bracket, the top 25% of which still pays 70% of all personal income tax revenue, while the bottom 50% pays 2.2%. You’re getting tax revenue confused with tax rate, but 3% of $40k will always be less than 3% of $1,000,000; that’s just math.

Or your “demonizing teachers” remark (asking teachers to pay 5.8% of their own pension contributions as opposed to 0.2%, as they do in Wisconsin currently, isn’t draconian, particularly when the state matches some dollar contributions at $57 for every dollar the employee contributes)

And I wouldn’t worry too much about China – they are swimming in debt, have a lax banking system that allows them to easily hide losses, loan out large sums of money without hope of repayment, as well as launder money overseas. Here’s a hint – if foreign investment in China from the US and Europe has been flat for the better part of a decade, where is all their “new money” coming from? Nowhere. It’s the same old money laundered overseas and funded back to Chinese banks and corporations. That house of cards will come down eventually.

and your thoughts on education – I agree that a college education should be affordable. But universities are either state-run institutions (for example, UCLA) or privately-controlled (Harvard, Yale, etc.). They are responsible for the run-up in costs of education, not the federal government (unless you can find me some mysteriously legislation declaring that students must pay more tuition each year passed by Obama). And part of that cost I’m sure is covering the expenses (specifically pensions and within that specifically for baby boomers who are trying to shore up their retirements before they begin to retire en masse in approximately 14 days) for their education staff, many of which fall under those self-same public teacher unions you don’t want people to demonizing (even though you apparently want it both ways). As for student loan organizations, while I will never defend all of them, having taken student loans and as I am still in the process of diligently paying them off month after month (without driving myself into the poorhouse at any point in the process), they aren’t all bad. In fact, many of them enable individuals like me to go to the college of my choice. I also chose not to go to a school that would put me $65k in debt every year while studying for a liberal arts degree. Nor do the universities force students to attend places they can’t afford for degree programs that don’t make them any more employable than the moment they walked in the door, nor do the student loan originators, nor does the federal government. If people stop paying exorbitant rates, rates go down to fill holes in enrollment. Supply and demand (as an aside, I think this notion that everyone needs to go to college right out of high school is foolish – I’d prefer a European model where they can choose between civil or military service as well).

“no one should be faulted for getting an education.”

and where did i say that??? Many of the Occupiers in NYC stated why should the banks be the only ones bailed out. why not the students who have loans that they are having trouble paying off. oh f’n well. their plans of what they wanted to do with their life & education didnt pan out. smaller screw up then the larger bank screw ups but bad planning or simply bad oversights nonetheless. again why should i bail out ANYONE’s mistake??? why do i have to pick between two sh*tty choices???

no one paid off my loans when i was unemployed for 4.5 f’n years in the 90s. banks, politicians, or students. all abunch of cry babies. making excuses for a friend(s). I also think that congresspeople who use insider knowledge in the stock market should go to jail. why should they be above the law???

what pisses me off about moore is he & miller BOTH created violent images & individuals and yet he disses miller as if miller was the only one. I find him disingenuous at best ON THIS TOPIC.

to be objective in this argument I want to see pundits see the blame on BOTH SIDES.

give me a f’n break folks.

Craig,

Oh come now, that’s an incomplete assessment of the Tea Party’s message about the bailouts. They wanted the economy to essentially implode and rebuild itself as that is what they think the market does, naturally. It’s a simplistic perspective that seeks to view the market as some natural phenomenon rather than the unpredictable ‘structure’ we’ve created. The OWS movement does not view the market this way. They were upset by the bailouts that created too big to fail and left them largely unaccountable still and free to do it all again with overvalued derivatives, insuring themselves to lose with regards to bad loans and investments and their ability to freeze the economy by not lending as they promised. This cannot be reduced to, ‘they co-opted’ the Tea Party. The Tea Party is far more simplistic and has brings the baggage of Christian fundamentalists and defense hawks who want to attack Iran next.

Look, 1% of the population over 43% of the wealth in this country. Take a look at this: http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
These figures are staggering. The bottom 90% has seen their wealth go down as well and the upper 1% can’t pay slightly more taxes?! It’s insane.

Actually, teachers should not have to sacrifice anything. There are teacher shortages in most states and class size is out of control in many places as well (i worked as a teacher out of college several years ago before doing grad school). It is draconian because it’s all to give the richest Americans more tax breaks. It’s a simple ploy, cut taxes and then claim a shortfall and demonize teachers and unions as the culprits. The figures don’t lie though. The richest Americans are now better off and the poorest Americans have less and less. Add the next 9% and most of the wealth in this country is in the hands of a relative few. I’m not saying redistribution even here and it’s not that at all. It’s a small sacrifice to help the rest of the country not struggle and maintain the ladder so that others can have a chance at success without massive debt.

Actually, China has received a massive cash transfer from the US via manufacturing jobs which may not be permanent, but they are going to be there for quite some time and will help them with their middle class.

No, no, no, I am not having things both ways. You are framing things to make it appear as if I am going to demonize teachers for what they get at universities and somehow make that related to teachers as a whole. Regardless, I have no problem with more public funds to subsidize education. Cut defense spending down by over half, hell, 3/4 and you have money right there to subsidize and make practically free college for most Americans. It’s foolish not to, especially in math, science and technical fields. If you make getting a scholarship as an English major more difficult and easier in other necessary fields, you have a much better social outcome.

Ah, the catch-22. People stop going to college, they get less pay for jobs they may not be considered for. Colleges can simply import more foreign students. This is not a simple supply and demand issue. Supply and demand are not so easily responsive or conducive to social needs. The market is simply fraught with problems and instability without regulation and laws (as we have in everyday life). Ignoring all of this means shooting ourselves in the foot frankly.

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