Robot 6

Quote of the Day | ‘Spider-Man doesn’t always win. He’s us’

“He’s not Superman. Spider-Man doesn’t always win. He’s us. We do our best, but sometimes we fall short. What makes him heroic is that he stays on the right path. There’s a victory in this story for Peter if you’re willing to see it. Any superhero can look heroic in the winner’s circle, when they’re adored and showered with praise. But when you’re in a losing battle, when the world’s against you, when everyone thinks you’re a menace, but you do the right thing anyway … that’s when you’re better than a superhero. That’s when you’re Peter Parker.”

– writer Dan Slott, explaining why the big reveal in the final issue of The Amazing Spider-Man is the right ending for Peter Parker

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Oye. Remember when Johnny Storm “died”? Remember when Steve Rogers “died”?
This is all a sales gimmick. Amazing Spidey will be back next year after the Annual Event-du-Jour Marvel pumps out whenever. It’ll be back with a big ol’ Number One Issue for everyone to slobber over.

I agree to a point. I like Slott but I’m a little iffy on Superior. It reminds me of when they put the x-men on their own island. Yeah it was great for a story or two but when it goes on way too long like that did it kinda flies in the face of the core mythology. I just hope Dan knows when to wrap this up with us wanting more.

I kind of think there’s a difference between Peter going all out trying to save someone he cares about and falling short (i.e. Gwen Stacey,) and Peter dying and letting one of his worst enemies run around in HIS body and just hoping that he’ll do the right thing. There’s heroes trying and failing, and then there’s just plain evil winning. People always remember that Peter failed to save Gwen. They tend to forget that he went after Norman, and nearly killed him, but failed to do so. In fact, killing Gwen was only done on the condition that Norman be killed as well, as appropriate “punishment” for what he did. Just saying.

Either way, I don’t think it matters. This isn’t “the end.” I don’t even think it’s going to last six months (maybe a year, but THAT will be pushing it). Slott isn’t telling the story of Peter’s “end.” He’s telling the story that Peter is essential TO Spider-Man. Heck, he even has MJ come out and say it in Spider-Island. That’s what this story will be. To show how Peter Parker is vital to Spider-Man, and just having anyone else with the same powers will not be the same thing. And he’s going to show that by having Ock in Peter’s body, to show the difference.

So Peter Parker’s story gives way to a villain’s redemption? Is this a story worth telling?

Marvel undercuts themselves before they even start. We know that the real Parker will be back within the next year because Marvel has made no bones about cashing in on movie success (Avengers Assemble). All the dramatic tension is hollow. Peter dies? So what, he’ll be back. The reader knows this, so how can a reader be invested in this event if it rings hollow? Happened with Johnny Storm, happened with the silliness that was Fear Itself, happened with Captain America. We all know they are going to come back, so why kill them?

Marvel is trying to sell comic books, we all get that, but when their writers come out and try and sell us all these “emotional beats” and that schlock in the quote above, it’s horse dung, cause if all that stuff mattered, they wouldn’t do it every quarter. They’d do it when they acutally had a story to tell. Events like this make me hate comics. It disrespects the craft of telling a story when the reader knows what your telling isn’t honest and that is what Marvel continues to perpetrate with stuff like this.

@RDMacQ

Interesting take on this story idea. Hadn’t really thought of it like that.

Cap.America never really died, Johnny Storm never really died, Bucky during Fear Itself never really died, Peter Parker didn’t truly die, read a bit more closely, the editors just market it as a big death for people who don’t read comics, they aren’t trying to fool fans. Yea Peter Parker will be back eventually, just be quiet and enjoy the write, and laugh at the more angry fanboys.

Stupid typo is should say ride not write.

“That’s what this story will be. To show how Peter Parker is vital to Spider-Man, and just having anyone else with the same powers will not be the same thing. And he’s going to show that by having Ock in Peter’s body, to show the difference.”

But, wasn’t that what was made in the clone saga? What is the point in retelling the same gimmick, once the first time around wasn’t that successful? There are other ways to say that Spider-Man is vital to Peter Parker and vice versa. Other ways that don’t mean the bad guy wins. Cause that, to me, is essentially what Slott is doing here: saying the bad guy can win and that that is ok. In a Spider-Man story, it’s not. Slott fails to comprehend what Spider is all about, which is astonishing, since he’s writing the character for so long.

Slott says: “when everyone thinks you’re a menace, but you do the right thing anyway. That’s when you’re better than a superhero.” What is doing the right thing in that situation? Letting Doc Oc knows what Peter life was? That’s not doing the right thing, that’s surrender. And that is not Peter Parker.

Forget the dialogue of the issue being laughable, and the ridiculous and shameful ending, Amazing #700 is wrong in a more essential level. It’s saying to whoever reads that Peter Parker left this world being all right with the fact his worst enemy has taken his place. And that, again, is not Peter Parker.

“But, wasn’t that what was made in the clone saga?”

Nope.

The point of that was (initially) to have a big event story similar to the Death of Superman and Knightfall. It eventually morphed into a story that tried to get a single Peter Parker. The point of the story wasn’t to show how “essential” Peter was to Spider-Man. T

“What is the point in retelling the same gimmick, once the first time around wasn’t that successful? There are other ways to say that Spider-Man is vital to Peter Parker and vice versa. Other ways that don’t mean the bad guy wins. Cause that, to me, is essentially what Slott is doing here: saying the bad guy can win and that that is ok. In a Spider-Man story, it’s not. Slott fails to comprehend what Spider is all about, which is astonishing, since he’s writing the character for so long.”

I don’t think he doesn’t get that. Again, this story actually plays into that.

What I do feel is that he’s marketing the story poorly, and treating the reader’s like idiots.

“Slott says: “when everyone thinks you’re a menace, but you do the right thing anyway. That’s when you’re better than a superhero.” What is doing the right thing in that situation? Letting Doc Oc knows what Peter life was? That’s not doing the right thing, that’s surrender. And that is not Peter Parker.”

Right. Which is why his statement doesn’t make sense and isn’t fooling anyone.

“Forget the dialogue of the issue being laughable, and the ridiculous and shameful ending, Amazing #700 is wrong in a more essential level. It’s saying to whoever reads that Peter Parker left this world being all right with the fact his worst enemy has taken his place. And that, again, is not Peter Parker.”

Hopefully this will be addressed WHEN Peter comes back, which I’m guessing will be in about eight to nine months. Roughly.

And that’s what we get when an internet discussion is played like it should always be.

Glad to talk to you, RDMacQ.

I disagree. Spidey usually does win. Not as much as Supes or Bats (and even they lose on occasion, given Supes’s funeral and Batman’s broken back), but probably as much as most Marvel heroes. It’s just the cost to him is usually huge.

I admit that I like him because being a hero never comes easy for him. It’s a lonely and painful life, one that Peter Parker sometimes hates more than anything. He’s a hero not because he loses sometimes but because he never, ever quits. Which makes him someone to relate to sometimes and someone to aspire to other times.

Slott’s run has been generally entertaining, with moments where things have been outright brilliant, and others were I’ve shrugged and a few where I was annoyed or bored. I think I get what he’s been doing all these years, and I think he’s earned the right to take a few risks. But at the same time, I think I see why I don’t love everything he does now. I can respect this take but it’s not how I would play things myself.

I think I have been reading Big Two comics for too long now.

All sense of impact from a character’s death or some other profound status quo change is destroyed because you just KNOW that at some point in the very near future, everything will be reset. When you have ridden through so many cycles, you see the patterns.

Some of my friends and I have discussed that a person should read Big Two comics for only about 10 years. That should take someone through at least one complete cycle of a company’s creative vision. Beyond that, you really see the repetitiveness and you lose a lot of the enjoyment.

This really applies to reading the entire line of a company’s books and isn’t to say should can’t continue to read their output. But hopefully, you will have moved onto indie books or something else.

What an exercise in futility. I read the story in a comic book store and just could not bring myself to buy it. I’ve done 25 + years of reading. Like the prior poster, things are getting cyclical and the reading public is getting burned out. It’s a novel turn, yes. But I see no redemptive qualities in Ock being Spider-Man…none. The character is deceptive to his own world, the writer is passing this off to a bored readership. Maybe it’s time for a new writer. Slott served his time admirably. He isn’t the best of the bunch, but wrote nothing shameful like the clone saga or Aunt May marrying the “good(?)” Dr. of years back.
You want shock, interest, and sales? Let’s see Quesada bring back Gwen Stacy from the dead. No clone, no children, nothing. You can bring the Torch, Capt. America, Jean Grey, and the Goblin back…though one excuse/gimmick/stunt or another, but you can’t bring GWENDOLYN back??? FOR SHAME!!! Why deny her? Why don’t you TRULY insult you’re readership? Good people are supposed to perpetually suffer??? Roll the dice, make up some stupid reason! C’mon…it’s what the public wants…..If Peter was killed in the Ultimate universe, he could not have been far behind in this one either.
It’s time to move on.

@ Todd- great advice. Complaining this has been done before highlights that one has been reading the character too long because the stories are cyclic. I’ve been reading Marvel on and off for 37 years and my first reaction was, “oh, this is exactly what Marvel did with Captain America when they replaced him with Jon Walker – highlight how bad he is in the role, and how essential Steve Rogers was to Captain America.” This Spider-Man story is a retread of that story, which I’m sure was a retread of another story. Comics aren’t written for me or anyone around when the Clone Wars were written. Marvel and DC write their comics over a 5yr cyclic program, hoping to capture NEW readers, with a rehash of storylines/ situations that most readers are unaware of. Those readers leave, and Marvel/ DC hope to capture the next 5yr load of readers. It’s the way comics have always been written, and always will be. If it doesn’t meet your needs go read Savage Dragon or another independent title that doesn’t pander to this style of writing. Just don’t keep being surprised and dissapointed when it keeps happening. It’s inevitable.

Just because a gimmick has been done before doesn’t mean a new writer can’t add something to it and improve upon it. James Bond has been retelling the same stories for 50 years and every once in a while someone comes by with a new take on an old idea. Hell, this is the 4th time the x-men have reopened the school but that doesn’t change the fact that Wolverine and The X-Men is a damn good series.

I gotta disagree with the ppl that are saying you should only read the Big Two for a set amount of time. Im 36 years old and ive been reading comics constantly for about the last 25 or so years. Ive seen stories that were similar to previous events like Civil War having similarities to parts of Acts of Vengeance. But there are always new writers coming up and putting new spins on things or having a new way of looking at a title.

I am reminded further of one thing: how much I hate (the majority of) modern comics. SO MUCH.

This is what you get when you let Captain Bligh run the Bounty. This is what happens when Victor Frankenstein brought his creation to life. This is what happened when you let corporate control creative.

VIVA LA REVOLUCION in the comic book industry! I DEMAND IT!!!

Bronze Age Baby-68

December 26, 2012 at 4:55 pm

The only thing I find really offensive here is the hype and misdirection.
In olden days this story-line would have lasted a few issues and would have been resolved. And things would move on.
But nowadays it’s all a lot cheese about a plot device that’s very familiar to readers and ultimately will lead to a bump in sales that should already be respectable
Interesting to see how Otto behaviors in Pete’s body while he’s on sabbatical, and it’s a good excuse to mess with the costume.
But we’ve been through this country before.

The thing is, this story is entirely pointless since the reset button will eventually be pushed and Peter will be back. That is a 100 percent certainty. So why would Marvel and Slott think people would want a story like this, given that it will ultimately have no impact whatsoever on Peter’s life? In the end, this, like all superhero deaths, will be undone and forgotten.

Why is it entirely pointless?? They are telling good stories that are entertaining to a lot of ppl. Quit trying to out think the room.

safe to say .. the consensus is .. it’s a GIMMICK!

however, Peter Parker died in the Ultimate Universe .. everybody seems to like the new Ultimate Spiderman .. doesn’t look like Peter Parker is resurrecting there any time soon ..

of course, it all depends on sales .. but generally a change like this is good for sales .. and this does wipe out a convoluted continuity which includes clones, a deal with the devil that ended the MJ marriage, etc.

I’ve never had anybody take over my body, leave me to die, and then try to hook up with my ex-wife. Who is this US he is referring to?

And now I remember why I don’t read hardly anything Marvel or DC puts out anymore….it’s garbage. Everything with them is just for the sales at the end of the day, not did we actually put out a good product. While I know everyone needs to make money at least Image, Avatar, and a couple others are putting out some excellent products which I would pay more for than this type of crap that Marvel sells. It’s a shame really that the characters Peter Parker and Spider-Man belong to Marvel, they would be better off somewhere else where putting out a great product matters.

I think that the main problem with ASM #700 and the upcoming SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN is NOT that Spidey lost and Doc Ock won, it’s that most people don’t have any interest in reading an ongoing Spidey book where the “new” Spidey is Doc Ock in Peter’s body. If this was a completely brand new character who took up the mantle of Spider-Man, I think that more people MIGHT be LESS negative towards this story.

There is a great story to be told with the apparent death of Peter Parker and the responsible villain assuming his identity to be a better Spiderman. Unfortunately for Dan Slott that story was called “Kraven’s Last Hunt”.

“That’s what this story will be. To show how Peter Parker is vital to Spider-Man, and just having anyone else with the same powers will not be the same thing. And he’s going to show that by having Ock in Peter’s body, to show the difference.”

So Marvel’s just copying “Knightfall/Knightquest/KinghtsEnd and Doc Ock is Jean Paul Valley?”

House of Ideas? “House of Copying Ideas maybe.

Nevertheless, what really made me reply is this whole “Spider-Man doesn’t always win. He’s us. We do our best, but sometimes we fall short. ” line from Slott. Don’t buy it on iota. Cause I’m sick of everyone basically with the “We have to do the worst to Peter Parker at all times/He can’t ever really be happy” mentality.

It’s complete BS. I swear writers just want to get a hold of him so they can push all their personal anger and annoyances onto his character. I’m sick of him being the one everything bad has to generally happen to all to constantly try to say “He’s like the rest of us. We don’t always get the happy ending either.”

Then you know what, do that to other characters more often. But no, it always seems to be Peter having to get the short end of the stick.

@Rob – you beat me to it. I was just about to write the same thing.

Kraven’s last hunt is an excellent scripted story with beautiful art work without any pointless “death” just to stir up controversy, although the death in it did stir up controversy, it was unwanted controversy.

Actually, Kraven’s Last Hunt came out just before I started really diving into comic books (specifically Spider-Man) full throttle (you know, old enough to mow lawns) so I wasn’t apart of the comic book community, just grocery store spinner racks, but the first issue of Kraven’s Last Hunt ends with Spider-Man getting shot with a rifle and buried. We don’t find out till part 4 that he was shot with tranquilizers (the story was told over all three Spider-Man titles so it was only a month later that part 4 came out), but today this issue would have been promoted as the death of Spider-Man just to get headlines and Kraven would have been Spider-Man for several months before that revelation.

I’ve gotten over the super hero death and return story, unfortunately they are apart of comic books, but I hate when they kill the hero through circumstances that normally they would overcome and have overcome in the past. Ultimate Spider-Man’s death was noble and awe inspiring because it was a case of Spider-Man refusing to give up even though he was injured and facing the entire sinister six all at once with out the help of shield, something he had never done before in the Ultimate universe. He fought till they were all taken out and only then did lay down and stop pushing himself and died from his injuries. I wasn’t happy that they killed Ultimate Spider-Man, but I did feel he went out in a very noble and Spider-man way.

I guess the win Slott speaks of here is that Dr Ock suddenly vows to be a super hero at the last second, but that feels like such a cop out, not logical story telling.

Sensationalistic Stunts Sell Comics. But not to me.

The Big Two can keep on killing their heroes, mutating them, reinventing them, replacing them, turning them evil, giving them new costumes, marrying them, erasing their marriages, declaring they’re gay. It’s a poor substitute for simply telling a great story, like Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby did.

This latest fiasco won’t cause me to stop buying Spider-Man comics.
Because Spidey-editors already drove me away long ago.

Wow. What a bunch of angry people. Where do I go for a discussion of the actual comic instead?

@Simon : no clue. If u find out let me know.

Rob, you made me laugh out loud. So thanks for that!

Even pre supposing for a moment that the best way to end Peter Parker is with him losing (which is really jusy typical grimdark obsessed cynicism that this genre is choking itself to death on.) To have Peter go out via a bodyswap plot is still no way to send off one of the greatest superheroes ever. And that is even presupposing this isn’t yet another dumbass “lets take the hero out of the book for a year.” gimmick.

I agree that Peter Parker is the everyman, but doesn’t making him someone who’s been dead and resurrected kinda poke at that too?

There’s just a few problem with that reason. Peter didn’t win. Doc ock won. The villian was essentially rewarded for being evil. They already have a darker Spider-Man with Scarlet Spider. the difference there is Kaine is being punished for his misdeeds.

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