Robot 6

Nancy A. Collins calls for DragonCon boycott over ties to co-founder

Dragon*Con

Ed Kramer’s extradition to Georgia last week on child-molestation charges dating back to 2000 has again cast a spotlight on his relationship with DragonCon, the Atlanta convention he helped found nearly 26 years ago.

The 51-year-old Kramer hasn’t been directly associated with the event since his arrest in August 2000 on charges of sexually abusing two teenage boys. However, he continues to receive annual dividends from DragonCon — $154,000 for 2011 alone, according to Atlanta Magazine — after attempts to buy out Kramer’s stake in the for-profit corporation proved unsuccessful. The litigious Kramer has filed two lawsuits against co-founder Pat Henry and DragonCon/ACE Inc.

But horror author Nancy A. Collins, who was among the first to speak out against Kramer, contends DragonCon organizers haven’t done enough to extricate themselves from its co-founder. And so in a proposal circulated Monday by Stephen Bissette, the former Swamp Thing writer calls for professionals to boycott the convention in an effort “to cut off the flow of money” to Kramer, “who has been using the 150K+ a year he receives each year from DragonCon to avoid trial and manipulate the justice system.”

“No matter what DragonCon does or says, funds from the convention will continue to go to Edward Kramer until either he dies or the corporation that runs the convention dissolves and reincorporates under another name,” Collins writes. “DragonCon knows what needs to be done, but has been dragging its feet on this matter, and has gone to great trouble over the last 12 years to hide the fact that they continue to fund Edward Kramer’s lifestyle. [..] It is up to the Professionals — we writers, artists, musicians, editors, actors, and film-makers — to make a stand, as we are a large part of what attracts (at last count) 50,000 fans to the convention each Labor Day.”

Ed Kramer (Gwinnett County Jail booking photo)

As Atlanta Magazine reported in September, the wildly successful convention made Kramer wealthy enough that he’s been able to afford to file motion after motion to stall his criminal case for more than a decade. A month after his initial incarceration in the Gwinnett County (Georgia Jail) following his August 2000 arrest, he fell and hit his head, an injury that, when coupled with his other unusual health requirements, led to his release in November 2000 on $75,000. He was back in jail within a few days — a neighbor reported seeing a teenage boy enter his home — but he was placed under house arrest following claims of a January 2001 assault by a deputy.

Even a reindictment to include a third alleged victim couldn’t keep the litigious Kramer in jail. His declining health, which apparently required the attention of 16 physicians, led to one hearing delay after another, and repeated petitions to the court resulted in 11 modifications to the conditions of his bond.

The next decade would see Kramer successfully petition for Social Security disability benefits and fail in a bid to emigrate to Israel, all while continuing to stall his prosecution. It wasn’t until Kramer was arrested in September 2011 in Connecticut on a bond violation — he was allegedly caught in a motel room with a 14-year-old boy — that he finally ended up back in jail. But even then, he fought extradition back to Georgia for more than a year.

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80 Comments

As far as I know DragonCon itself didn’t molest any children.

I’m not sure which is stranger, that you anthropomorphize an event, or that you qualify your statement with “As far as I know …”

This guy is scum and decent people will stop enabling him.

Nik: thanks for that useless post. Did you even read the article or did you just rush full speed ahead to post the first thought that popped into your mind? The people attending and the organizers of this convention have aided a pedophile who has continued to break and flaunt the law using funds provided to him by the continued existence of this convention. Ask yourself what’s more important: your right to dress up like a dragon and talk about wizards or stopping a repeat sexual offender. Easy choice to me.

DragonCon may not have molested any children but as long as the corporation remains under that name and the convention is still called DragonCon this scumbag still gets money and will continue to prevent justice from happening to his victims. I have heard you’re argument Nik many times but it does not matter if the Con is not guilty of doing something, they are guilty by association and guilty by funding this monster.

The article states that the con has been sued by the perv for trying to get rid of him. If they have done everything legal to handle this and have been outmaneuvered legally, Collins and professional agitator Bissette are suggesting we punish the con for trying to do what they want and failing because of trying to stay within the law?

I’ve never attended DragonCon, and I certainly never will, as long as Ed Kramer continues to profit financially from the show. I’m sure the present organizers of the con want nothing to do with Kramer; this situation must be nightmarish for them.

However, I cannot, in all good conscience, contribute to an enterprise that benefits Ed Kramer in any way. I don’t want be involved in anything that helps fund his legal defense against criminal accusations that are, to say the least, very disturbing.

I hope other professionals, celebrities and attendees follow the dictates of their consciences.

Man, those child molesters really ruin everything don’t they?

Ed Kramer is spending lots of money to slow down the judicial process and keep himself out of jail as long as possible (or maybe even buy a good enough defense that he is found innocent). That money comes from one main source of income; his profits from the Dragon*con corporation of which he is a 33% owner.

The more $$$ Dragon*con makes, the more money Kramer makes, the more money he has to spend on a defense in the trial. The money Dragon*con made over the last decade helped fund (thru his partial ownership) Kramers years of successfully avoiding prosecution. No money? He would have already stood trial.

oh and CBR he was not “allegedly caught with a 14 year old boy in a motel room” what he was doing in that hotel room was alleged. I assume the police report states that he was in the hotel room and there was a 14 year old boy also present ,correct? Intent gets to be investigated, physical presence seems pretty cut and dried.

I went to Dragon*con the last two years after moving to Atlanta. I will not be going again until D*con seperates itself from this person and my con $$s do not, in part, go to him.

People avoid manufacturers that use child labor, choose their fast food based on positions on Gay marriage, and buy groceries based on where they source their produce. We are a more informed consumer nation, and while not perfect, this situation seems to be pretty cut and dried in terms of $s going to fund something that I want no part of.

Miraclemet, it’s “alleged” until a court determines otherwise; a police report isn’t auotomatically considered fact.

Nancy A. Collins

January 29, 2013 at 11:16 am

As my good friend and fellow “professional agitator” Steve Bissette so eloquently put it:

“You know, this isn’t MY problem or Nancy A. Collins’s problem to fix, however much so many folks are eager to make it “our” problem. DragonCon, step up to the plate. I’ve no desire to hurt anyone’s livelihoods, but I’ve no stock in continuing to support, much less “invest in,” emotionally/materially/apathetically, this kind of corrupt organization.”

And I should point out that if DragonCon doesn’t do what’s necessary to sever themselves, they will, no doubt, fid themselves sued into oblivion by Kramer’s victims. Why? Because 1) Kramer is still an owner, and 2) some of the alleged sexual abuse took place at the convention itself. The analogy to Penn State and Jerry Sandusky is extremely apt in the case, as is that of the Catholic Church and pedophile priests.

I chose this moment in time to speak up for a boycott because 1) Kramer has just been extradited back to Georgia to answer for his crimes, and 2) one of Kramer’s victims–now a grown man and veteran of the Iraq War–has gone online at ATLANTA MAGAZINE to post a letter of defiance to Kramer and those who have enabled him over the years. This is about more than inconveniencing DragonCon’s fans, or even DragonCon itself.

If you can boycott Chic-Fil-A, then why is it so outrageous to boycott THIS? DragonCon may be a privately held company, but that doesn’t mean they don’t owe everyone an explanation.

And lastly–so what if Kramer sues DragonCon for trying to get rid of him? Let the bastard sue them from his prison cell. Big whoop. They’ve got the money to postpone things indefinitely, just like he does. Kramer threatened to sue me for slander/libel back in 2001 “after I have successfully defeated my charges”, in a blatant attempt to shut me up. I laughed. I continue to laugh. This POS is in no position to sue anyone anymore.

It’s unfortunately not as easy as just dissolving and then reincorporating. He still owns something like over 30% of the company. They have already tried ousting him legally and have withheld dividends on more than one occasion. Dragon*con has to be really careful as to how they extricate him from the business or he can sue.

Every site running this story needs to consult a lawyer for advice like the Beat does with Jeff Trexler. A lot of the confusion here could be cleared up simply by asking questions about corporate dissolution law.

And speaking of that, it’s my understanding that Ed Kramer is involved with some legal battles with the Dragon*Con company. Under Georgia corporate tax dissolution law the Dragon*Con corporation can not be dissolved until lawsuits like that are settled if the corporation is not under bankruptcy protection.

Further, if Kramer actually owns 30% of the company as a poster above me says then the board may not have enough authority to even sign a dissolution notice so long as Kramer refuses to sell or liquidate.

i’ve been to the con once, years ago. i hated the hotel it was in. i don’t think it’s fair to penalize the fans and the actors/guests at this con because of one person. and please remember, this is america, where you are presumed INNOCENT until proven otherwise.

Forcing the convention management to buy him out is only going to benefit HIM by getting him a higher price for his shares.

People accused of crimes are allowed to own property, including shares in corporations. If he is getting $150K per year from his equity in DragonCon, forcing them to buy him out will just give him a seven or eight figure chunk of cash he can invest elsewhere. It is notoriously difficult to sell shares in a privately held corporation, so this boycott is probably a dream come true for Mr. Kramer- liquidity at last!

I’ve been attending Dragoncon for fifteen years now. When I found out what happened with Ed Kramer I was angry, furious, but not at the Con. They took swift steps to distance themselves.
I understand the author’s petition but the problem, as I see it, is you are not punishing Kramer. You are punishing the con-goers, the fans who paid for their only oppurtunity to interact with you. Georgia isn’t the Northeast or the West Coast. We don’t have dozens of high-profile conventions to go to that draw big guests. Dragoncon is it.
But irregardless, its become a touchstone for many people, the various fandoms with their own tracks where we touch bases with folks every year. Its a family in a sense. I’ll be quite honest and say that I haven’t gone based on the guests in years. I go for the people, the friends I’ve made and the ones I’ve yet to make.
Do I wish Kramer would go away and not recieve funds from the convention anymore, yes, of course I do.
Will I stop going to a weekend that marks my only vacation for myself, that doesn’t see me fulfilling others wishes and family obligations but is four days to celebrate the interests I enjoy with people who share them, no.
I go to Dragoncon every year. I’d love to see you there.
But I’m not going to be angry if you feel you shouldn’t be.

@Randy B—

Good to hear that non-Northeast/West Coast nerds (and those attendees from there also) aren’t gonna let a little thing like a pederast profiting from DRAGON*CON’s coffers get in the way of indulging their yearly geek on!

Now if only D*C-attending Comics Professionals and Websites could show the SAME of outrage/disgust at *this* issue and fire up the SAME e-calls for protesting and boycotting that un-named Convention who didn’t honor Comics Colorists… or with Comic-Con apparently not having enough (comp’d/Free) Pro passes to give out to them!

/Comicdom follies

I hear they are having a Big Gary Glitter Concert where kids get in free and get a puppy and candy.

Bottom line , he owns part of it and by going you are paying for his little boy trips to asia. Dragoncon shoule end the company and start new.

This article and people responding here take it as a given that someone accused of something is guilty and deserving of some sort of punishment decided upon by groupthink. I know pedophilia and child abuse are hot button concepts that once pushed make it very difficult not to have an emotive reaction- a sense of cultivated outrage is the mandatory response- but organizing boycotts based on kangaroo court judgements is pretty distasteful. Wouldn’t organizing something to assist the alleged victims with their legal or counselling costs be a more appropriate manifestation of the desire to assist?
Nobody organizing this boycott and nobody here has any of the facts. To impact the livelihood of the people who run and or participate in Dragoncon based on a verdict of guilty handed down as a prejudgment by the court of public opinion is inappropriate, unfair and immoral.

I detest child abuse like the majority of decent folk and I believe that we are far too soft on people who commit these dreadful crimes (we are even worse over here in the UK in terms of the length of sentence administered to child abusers). But the issue regarding Dragon*con’s complicity in Kramer’s crimes looks – from an outsider’s point of view – to be unclear. In what way, exactly, have they been apathetic or too slow to act? What exactly have they failed to do or failed to do vigorously enough? It looks as though the organizers want to wash their hands of Kramer but corporate red tape and a bunch of mind-numbing legalities are obstructing them at every step. Surely if they are taking every reasonable step to achieve a divorce from Kramer, then they cannot reasonably be blamed for the due process of law, over which they have no direct control? And putting a gun against their head will not make them any more effective at changing the law or getting the result that they and the fans clearly want. Are they definitely guilty of indifference or inaction? If so, then by all means boycott their event. While abuse against children is a black and white issue in my eyes, I think that the argument here for a boycott needs a bit more meat on the bones.

I’ve been going to Dragon-con for the better part of a decade and I have not been privy to any of the legal documents pertaining to any aspect of this so that means I am only digesting this by the facts the media has given me. But since forum think falls along the lines of …It was on the Internet then it must be true , I prefer to not make a judgment either way on this and proceed as normal. As a parent I find it more concerning that children were allowed anywhere near this guy in the first place because before he looked sleaziest dwarf in Mordor long before he had the Vader unmasked thing going. I pay taxes to a government that does far worse things with my money everyday so I think the legal system is more a fault here than anyone so why should I let that stop me from spending a weekend talking about Cthulhu and Buffy. So until the Elder Gods return to make us into trail mix , I’ll trust that the universe gives the guys back whatever he put out into or as my therapist says let people sort out their sides of the street. No matter that guy is it looks like is continuing to reap a miserable existence.

Meh

So because theres a chance that a pedophile may be connected to Dragoncon. I should stop going. Am I understanding correctly? Because of the evidence…well, we can’t say “evidence” because the trial hasn’t occured yet, but lets string him up, cancel the con and, and cheat the geek community out of an event because of a circumstance they had no involvment in….assuming that it happened at all in the first place

Sigh i suppose the whole “innocent until proven guilty” idea is pretty cliche` in any case, let’s just go ahead and string him up in the town square. Then again I geuss it makes it easier to tell the Punisher fans from the Captain America fans

And not to put too fine a point on it, even if found guilty, it probably wouldn’t stop me from going to dragoncon as it is. If guilty the family of the victim has my condolences, but not sure how much of an emotional investment I should be required to give for something that happened 13 years and a thousand miles away. If people are that concerend that the money they give may in part go to helping a child molester, then I think a lot of Catholic churches are goign to see less money in thier collection plates.

i mean Roman Polanski probably gets a cut of every “Chinatown” DVD sold, should I stop watching a Jack Nicholson flick because of what a person may be guilty of?

I love DragonCon !!! But I will never attend again knowing that part of my money is going to support a child rapist …

He receives dividends from the profits. It is a for-profit convention. The simplest thing I would think would be to see there are no profits, by donating all proceeds… say to a charity that deals with victims of child abuse. Then his dividend would be $0. The only issue would be that the other owners would likewise not receive any profits. They would have to be willing to give that up… at least for now, until this is over. So that way the convention could still run, your money would be going to a good cause, not a bad one, and the fans could feel good about that instead of ashamed.. and the fans (it is about them, not profits, right?) could still have their awesome event (and it is by far my favorite event of the year, the only con I go to anymore)… the people who run it could still be paid (those are expenses, not profits, and he doesn’t take part in that so no problems there… but it would still boil down to those people giving up their profit. I suppose its easy for me to say that, this might be for all I know their livelihood.. but that at least would be a price paid by those who associated with the accused (albeit not knowing what he did).

I dunno, it sounds too simple, there’s probably a flaw in this reasoning.

… in reading the article from Atlanta Magazine, it seems Henry (the other principle owner) tried to do some of that (albeit sans the charity part) but was sued over the tactic.. sigh…

Who will be hurt by this boycott? Just Kramer? Does literally no one else benefit from the Con? Calling for boycotts is well and good if there’s a single target but who else will it hurt?

@Dominic and @Nancy A Collins

The problem with a boycott is that the target is too narrow and the peripheral damage is rather spectacular. Dragon* Con doesn’t just bring money to Ed Kramer, and it doesn’t just benefit the other paid organizers of Dragon* Con ( of which there are no more than a handful). It affects the entire city of Atlanta. The businesses in the city prepare each year for the 75,000 people in attendance. They bring in more staff to handle more customers at their restaurants and hotels and shops.

The state of Georgia measures a noticeable increase in sales tax revenues that weekend from selling geeky stuff, corsets and costumes , games, movies, t-shirts, coffee, food, and so much more to 75,000 fans.

The Red Cross would tell you that they would be affected by a boycott. The only similar convention in America that receives more blood donations than Dragon* Con is San Diego Comic-Con, and the Dragon* Con blood donations have exceeded those from San Diego in some years. That’s a lot of blood for a lot of people who need it.

So potentially a large scale boycott is hurting a lot of people.

But it doesn’t seem to me that Nancy is calling for fans to boycott the event, she’s calling for the artists, writers, and other “celebrity” guests to stop going to the event. Which frankly, is worse, because that affects the fans. That kind of boycott is not punishing Ed Kramer at all. Dragon*Con failing to pay guests to appear at the convention doesn’t hurt Kramer at all, in fact it will probably help his bottom line ( obviously not significantly), because it’s one less paid guest, and attendance will not be significantly affected either way.

So who does this boycott affect the most? It could be the fans. That would be a logical option. But it seems to me that the people affected the most will be the people boycotting the event. I for one won’t be spending my money on Nancy’s stuff if she’s not there to sell it to me, which means I may never pick a second copy off the shelf to buy for a friend. I may not hear about the latest Ron Marz project, so I won’t think to ask my lcs to order me a copy, so the owner may not order that one extra copy he may have otherwise. These things don’t affect the artists and writers through my actions alone, but when they are multiplied by the 75,000 people who will be attending regardless of this article, it makes a difference.

Someone mentioned a more logical solution in an above post. A charity drive too help victims of child exploitation. Instead of boycotting the event create something positive to bring awareness to the problem. I challenge Nancy and her colleagues to come up with a way to help the victims, help the fans, and if necessary help the innocent convention organizers to distance themselves from Ed Kramer while allowing the Con to have the continued benefit of their attendance.

Nancy A. Collins

January 30, 2013 at 10:23 am

For those of you wringing your hands over how a DragonCon Boycott would financially cripple Atlanta…

Uh. No.

DragonCon is only one of several huge events that occur every Labor Day in Atlanta. The Chic-Fil-A Kick-Off at the Georgia Dome, featuring two SEC-ACC matchups, and the Bank of America Atlanta Football Classic brings in as many (if not more) as DragonCon. Black Gay Pride is also held that weekend. Again, huge numbers. And then there is the NASCAR Advocare 500 held at the Atlanta Motor Speedway. Again, we’re talking thousands upon thousands. DragonCon isn’t even the only “nerdly” thing going on that weekend. There’s also Drive Invasion out at the Starlight Drive-In that has bands all day and classic drive-in films all night.

A drop in DragonCon’s numbers might be felt by DragonCon’s vendors–and Ed Kramer’s wallet–but nowhere else.

@Nancy A Collins

But the truth is, Atlanta and Georgia governments state year after year that Dragon*Con is a significant financial boon to the city. You can research that if you’d like, the 75,000 people in attendance for 4 solid days overwhelm the numbers from the other events, and significantly outspend them. But I don’t think that’s the point.

The point is that the fans deserve the best con they can get. And the fans will attend this con. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the con will have a larger attendance this year than in the past, as it has been continuously growing for the last 19 years that I’ve been attending.

What I don’t see is how an intelligent person can believe that one (or a handful) of artists and writers boycotting the event will impact the convention’s bottom line. When a well devised, well organized fundraising event wouldn’t benefit the actual victims of the vile acts performed by pedophiles all over the country.

So, that is my challenge to you. Instead of calling for a boycott, come up with something productive to do. Use Dragon*Con as a voice to fight pedophilia and child exploitation. Come up with a way to help with the restitution while the other (roughly) 2/3′s of Dragon*Con’s controllers deal with how to get out of the legally binding choke-hold that their fellow co-owner has on them.

@ Those saying innocent til proven guilty, that only really applies to how the government treats the accused, the citizenry itself is allowed to make their own judgements and not put money in the pocket of a accused (and obviously guilty) child molester.

@ Kevin Melrose

I’d say the stranger part is “As far as I know” because I’ve been wrong before.

As a non-DRAGON*CON attendee, I find it interesting to read the commentators above justifying WHY they’ll continue supporting and attending D*C despite the Kramer “issue” raised by Collins and Bissette— interesting and sad. Interesting because of the mental gymnastic involved to rationalise the behavior, inconvinient data like the alleged pedophilia put aside; and sad because it’s the mechanism by which fan “supporters” threatened with the possible dimishment/ disruption/ destruction of that object of support… become full-on “apologists”. (Here, the Paterno/PSU analogy come to play.)

So far, it only seems like the diehard D*C attending fans that have taken up the flag to post in Message Boards and Twitter to support the show—- but where’s the views of those many and well-known Comics/SF Professionals
who’ve attended yearly and/or been promoted Guests of the show, before, during, and after revelations of Kramer’s
behavior? Their silence thus far have been deafening— but illuminating. As have, pointed out by Bissette, their collective lack of apology in their treatment of Collins when she first “broke” the news 13 years ago. (I know I’ll be asking these questions the next time I see those Comics and SF pros at the Con I attend.)

And I wonder if these DRAGON*CON “apologists”, Professional and Fans alike, will be as forthright and argumentative of their position when it’s revealed in the long-delayed criminal trial [again: repeatedly delayed thanks to the D*C monies] that the Convention that they attend… was essentially a CRIME SCENE where those “Ed’s Boys” were molested by Kramer.

Somehow I don’t think they’ll flood the various Comics sites, message boards and blogs with their views then.

/Comicdom follies

Agreed Atlanta will be fine either way. I’m sure it has some impact but not on the scale of the cityand everything else going on..

someone mentioned a Sandusky parallel.. and while not exactly the same (e.g. there is no use of facilities in committing crimes etc) it does fit in the ways referenced above on how rabid fans will justify anything to avoid hurting that which they are passionate about. thus the sophistry evident here. Hell I find myself searching for ways to do that and the right thing… because I love dragoncon… I honestly don’t care specifically for the organizing body or even the events so much ad the people and feeling of belonging when I am there…the charity suggestion was a means to the end of denying the profits not an excuse to allow them to continue. Though hopefully an appropriate method of achieving it.

For those who argue on it hurting too many folks… The degree of damage is not.on the level of that done by the accused…and from the article is apparently continuing to do with the means afforded him by the profits. You cannot put financial hits as a balance to child molestation. So if we enable this for the sake of merchant profits…even a lot of merchants….. We just put a price on the despicable act… I find thus unacceptable.
y
I will earnestly hope the trial he claims he has been denied happens now and he is put away so this is a non issue by fall.

Agreed Atlanta will be fine either way. I’m sure it has some impact but not on the scale of the cityand everything else going on..

someone mentioned a Sandusky parallel.. and while not exactly the same (e.g. there is no use of facilities in committing crimes etc) it does fit in the ways referenced above on how rabid fans will justify anything to avoid hurting that which they are passionate about. thus the sophistry evident here. Hell I find myself searching for ways to do that and the right thing… because I love dragoncon… I honestly don’t care specifically for the organizing body or even the events so much ad the people and feeling of belonging when I am there…the charity suggestion was a means to the end of denying the profits not an excuse to allow them to continue. Though hopefully an appropriate method of achieving it.

For those who argue on it hurting too many folks… The degree of damage is not.on the level of that done by the accused…and from the article is apparently continuing to do with the means afforded him by the profits. You cannot put financial hits as a balance to child molestation. So if we enable this for the sake of merchant profits…even a lot of merchants….. We just put a price on the despicable act… I find this unacceptable.

I will earnestly hope the trial he claims he has been denied happens now and he is put away so this is a non issue by fall, or the organizers find some way to save it while doing the right thing. I very much want to attend… There is nothing else that remotely compares for me. There are people I see once a year and have been seeing for a decade now at dragon con… But none of this is a valid excuse.

Crap double posted somehow apologies… Can someone delete the first and this post?

To those saying “innocent until proven guilty”: the reason Kramer hasn’t been proven guilty in a court of law is that he has spent THIRTEEN YEARS stalling his trial. Yes, that is his legal right. Yes, that means that in the eyes of the law he has not been found guilty.

But does that sound like the behavior of an innocent man to you? Stalling trial for thirteen years with motion after motion?

Say that it does.

What about violating bond?

As a condition of his bond, he was forbidden from leaving the state of Georgia, except to care for his sick mother. (Funny story: he petitioned a judge to let him go to New York to care for his sick mother AFTER she had already died.) He was also forbidden from being with minors.

He was found in Connecticut with a 14-year-old boy. That right there violates TWO terms of his bond.

Yes, in the eyes of the law, he’s innocent until he’s proven guilty.

But for God’s sake, does that SOUND like an innocent man?

Because it sounds to me like a man who’s spent 13 years avoiding a trial because he knows the evidence against him is so insurmountable that if he ever DOES wind up in front of a jury, they’ll render a guilty verdict in about five minutes.

And, not to put too fine a point on it, he’s been ABLE to spend 13 years avoiding a trial because he’s getting more than $100K/year from Dragon*Con.

Dress it up any damn way you like. Wring your hands and rend your garments at the sheer injustice it will wreak to withhold money from Dragon*Con, from artists, nay, from the very economy of the state of Georgia, on the minor technicality that the convention is one-third owned by a guy with multiple molestation charges against him who has spent his Dragon*Con money evading trial and who jumped bond so he could be alone in a hotel room with a shirtless 14-year-old.

But if you support Dragon*Con, you are supporting Ed Kramer. In a concrete, financial sense. Now, I’m sure you’re supporting some lovely people, too. The artists at the tables, the 2/3 of Dragon*Con’s owners who AREN’T child molesters, the people who sell snacks…I guess it’s down to whether you consider that a fair tradeoff.

Somehow I’m betting the answer correlates strongly with “Were you already planning on going to Dragon*Con anyway before you heard about this?”

Red Comet, at least, makes some valid legal points about the complexity of dissolution. But it seems to me that even if the co-owners can’t officially dissolve Dragon*Con, they can still loudly and publicly resign and leave Kramer to pick up the pieces.

And yes, that DOES leave them in a risky situation, having to start a new organization from scratch and see if they can get a new convention going with the remaining clout they’ve got from their Dragon*Con days.

But the entire point of the proposed boycott is to tip the scales so that continuing to support Kramer becomes a greater financial risk than NOT continuing to support him.

That’s how boycotts work. They’re a form of free speech and a vital component of the free market.

It SOUNDS like you’re a shallow thinking person who jumps to conclusions, makes snap judgements and has little to no capacity for deductive reasoning, but I’m sure you’re not like that at all. So we shouldn’t judge other people on how things SOUND because we can get it wrong.

Well, I wrote a pretty thorough rundown of the case, and the best you managed to come up with by way of rebuttal was a vague, two-sentence ad hominem retort that didn’t actually address a single thing I said. I’ll leave it to the peanut gallery to decide which of us sounds like a shallow-thinking person.

Anyone can hurl insults, Jonny. You want to talk about deductive reasoning, do feel free to demonstrate some by actually disputing the contents of my post instead of just calling me names.

Nancy A. Collins

January 31, 2013 at 3:47 pm

Well, Jonathan, since everything Thad has heard about Kramer violating bond has been proven to be undeniably true, It would seem you’re the one with “no capacity for deductive reasoning”.

I wrote a blog about the objections to the boycott and why they are stupid; however, the one that I want to address here is the one that states that every vendor is being hurt by a boycott.

That’s all well and good, except for the fact taht the vendors who decide to ignore the boycott are willingly supporting pedophilia. They can justify it anyway they want, but knowing that 34% of the profits go to a man who has an overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to his continual child molestation makes them accessories.

Besides that, the size of DragonCon has shown that there is definitely a demand for largescale science fiction conventions in Atlanta. If DragonCon is destroyed by this boycott (a very big If considering the amount of people who are more than willing to give their money to child molesters) then there the fans in Atlanta can always start another science fiction convention. When Boskone and MiniCon failed to please the attendees (thankfully not because of pedophilia) the conventions Arisia and CONvergence were started respectively. In fact they took the bulk of the attendees for the former cons.

All these people trying to condescend to the boycotters about corporate law seem very ignorant of basic economic concepts like supply and demand.

Sorry, Thad, my post was mean.

Breaking bond conditions and avoiding in inverted commas trial for 13 years are not sufficient reasons to call for a boycott, Nancy and Thad. Violating two terms of bond does not equal guilty of original charges. Why you feel that you’re the arbiters of right and wrong or that you’re entitled to enforce some kind of mob justice on someone based on how something sounds to you is disturbing.

“stalling for trial”sounds EXACTLY like what an innocent person may do, by the way. If I could avoid having to go through a trial for such an accusation I’d do so as long as I could. No indicator of guilt. We’re not talking about whether or not Kramer is guilty of anything- we’re talking about how Thad thinks someone SOUNDS guilty and I’m saying that’s not how it should work and not why you should take action against someone.

Nancy A- I admire your work and respect your prescence on this board as a professional writer, but nothing has been PROVEN to be true by anyone. Thad’s word that this is how things SOUND so this is how things are isn’t good enough for me to engage in a boycott. You do realise people have all kinds of accusations levelled at them all the time and that they’re not always true, correct? Violating bond conditions is not what you’re calling for a boycott about.

So.

A man (likely of little morals, or so I’ve heard) along with a few other people invested some of his money in an enterprise 26 years ago and a private corporation was founded. Of which is a large SHARE HOLDER but not a majority one. . 12 years ago said man was arrested for child molestation, and the corporation did everything it could legally do to distance themselves from this man, He no longer has anything to do with the running of the business/corporation.

Said corporation makes money. They’re for profit. AS a result, monies generated in excess of expenses are distributed to the shareholders, as is normal for every private or public corporation. This is capitalism. A person invests in a corporation, and reaps the profits (if any) from the endeavor.

I know it offends you that this man gets dividends on his original investment on this enterprise. But legally he is entitled to them. He put up the collateral years ago that entitles him to that. No different than if he owned stock in Disney, or IBM, or Motorolla.

All DragonCan do is distance themselves organizationally from this man. And try to buy back his shares, but he’s well within his rights to refuse to sell.

(I say this as an investment accountant, operations analyst, and a fund administration consultant. )
And as others have noted, it’s not that easy to dissolve a corporation and restart one. It would take years to do so, and they may not be able to as long as this man balks on selling his shares of stock.

If we were to live our lives based on who owns shares and therefore gets part of the profits in this or that corporation… We’d not deal with any banks, most cell phone companies, gas and oil companies, entertainment… etc.

Singling out DragonCon and Kramer may make you feel good. Claiming anyone who supports DragonCon ‘therefore supports pedophilia’…. Is a stretch. I could just as well say you support some terrorist organizations indirectly for holding Citigroup stock (something charged, but not yet proven for one of their largest shareholders, a Saudi prince).

people should get their facts straight

February 6, 2013 at 11:46 am

I agree with her moral outrage, but WTF else is DragonCon supposed to do? They kicked him off the board. He’s not associated with the con any more. It’s over. But Nancy Collins is upset that they’re still sending him shareholder checks. It must be nice for her to demand they do something that’s LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

1. They can’t refuse to pay him his shares. He’s legally entitled to them.

2. They can’t dissolve the corporation and reform as a new one, because in Georgia, doing so requires consent from the shareholders (including Kramer).

3. They can’t even TALK about Kramer and what a scumbag he is, because he’s suing them, and that’d play right into his case.

Like I said, I get why she’s angry, but everything on her “list of demands” is either (A) something that DragonCon already did — most of them a while ago — or (B) something they can’t legally do.

people should get their facts straight

February 6, 2013 at 11:53 am

Ms Collins your time would be much better spent encouraging dragoncon to donate money to a abuse charity than raising a fuss over something dragoncon is already trying to fix. At the end of the day the con is much too big for a handful of people not attending to make a dent. All you get is upset fans and more room on the elevators. But if you feel better crying about something before you completely know what you’re talking about (see my above post) then so be it.

Boycott Everything

February 6, 2013 at 1:35 pm

To be consistent we should boycott every corporation that has accused Child Molesters as stockholders. Corporations both public and private should publish the names of every accused Child Molester that has stock in their company. If the judicial systems fails us we should use any means available to make sure these people never get a dime from anything.

I am curious if Ms. Collins also plans a boycott of the US government, since they are paying his Social Security benefits.

Some of the money that Nancy Collins and everyone else pays into the Social Security system is DIRECTLY supporting Kramer.

Surely she will want to be consistent with her outrage.

Nancy, I just noticed that your book “Forbidden Acts” (Twenty-four short stories follow themes of human boundaries pushed to the limits, bringing readers into the lives of men and women who dabble in satanic worship, sexual manipulation, and other dark vices.) was edited by Ed Kramer.

Is Mr Kramer getting residual royalties from his involvement your book? If so, do you plan on boycotting the publisher, Avalon Books? Should people not purchase your book “Forbidden Acts”?

Ouch… People, on a first note, when I read this article, I was quite surprised. I am from Europe, and around here Ed Kramer is “slightly” known. I think, I have heard of it. But no matter. Ok, he is a pedophile (or not. For what I got to read, although very suspicious of all those delays and such, he has to yet be prooven definitively guilty).

Ok, he is a Dragon Con stockholder (and again, for what I could read, that’s just what he is, as he does not seem to attend to any meeting whatsoever).

But, how does that make it right to boycott something that thousands of fans go to every year? I mean, where does Dragon Con takes the blame here?? Why would it mean that, just by doing their obligations on paying Ed Kramer the money they owe him in the first place as a stockholder, makes them “accessories of a pedophile”?

And what about all the people working at Dragon Con? Will they take the blame too by staying unemployed? Even in the remote chance of a company dissolution, and opening with another name, all the mess its around involved! Hotel contracts, employee contracts, and a ton of other things that are needed to be taken care of, both for the dissolution, and for the creation of the new company…

During that process, Ed Kramer would not suffer. The fans, artists, employees and hotels would. And all for what? For a mild association from Dragon Con with this guy? They pay him, because they have to. That doesnt make them bad.

And what him leaving Dragon Con, by a dissolution of it. Ok, he leaves. He’ll just go buy stocks from another company. Then you’ll close that one too? And what about every other company that have someone with a pending process in court due to something they did? either big or small? we gonna close them all too? And the people associated to those offenders, even if remotely? Ed Kramers favorite coffee shop employee which serves him coffee every morning, for example? shall we arrest her too? I mean, she’s prolonging his well being. And the grocery stores where he buys food? Also? I mean, they’re prolonging his life.

Chick-Fil-A’s owner made a public decision fund anti-equality.

The guy in question here is making money he earned (presumably) and using it to pay his attorneys. I.e., he’s drawing the equivalent of pay check and spending it how he wants. Yes, it’s a big paycheck, and yes he’s a bad person, but it seems as if it’s money he’s legally entitled to.

Is it even remotely possible to know the criminal history of every employee of every company with which any of us does business? It is possible to know the criminal history of top management? It seems unlikely.

I don’t understand legal issues well enough to even begin to guess if there’s anything Dragon*Con can do that they haven’t tried already, but it sounds as if the powers that be are at least making the effort.
.

How about protesting the legal loopholes that have allowed Kramer to dodge the system for so many years?

While Nancy is rightfully pissed and has her rights to call for a boycott to punish this guy, I feel she’s playing Judge/Jury/Executioner by proposing that an entire convention be destroyed before a legal verdict is called.

Find a way to get the book thrown at Kramer, then hopefully D-Con can fully separate themselves from him.

Elizabeth Roberts

February 7, 2013 at 11:37 am

Sadly, if we were to boycott every organization that contains sexual deviants, we would have have to boycott the US Government. Raise hands here, who’s going to boycott the IRS?

DragonCon has attempted to get rid of this repugnant deviant for years but he’s managed to fob them off legally. Until someone can shut the loopholes, why punish everyone else?

Tell you what, Nancy. Since we both know that several of your own book sales are profitable for Mr. Kramer as well, how about I encourage people to boycott your books? It makes just as much sense after all.

What, you don’t like that idea, because it’ll hurt your income? Well, your idea hurts mine. I make more money at Dragon*Con each year than I do the entire rest of the year, and I know I’m not the only vendor who does. And if the celebrities, whether they be Patrick Stewart or D-List celebs like yourself, are no longer there, there’s no incentive for the fans to go. And if the fans don’t go, I don’t make money. Which means that I would probably shortly go out of business. Or at the very least I’d seriously be struggling.

Kramer is honestly probably the person who is hurt the least by your proposal.

I don’t have a problem with the phrase, “As far as I know” because to me it indicates incomplete knowledge about a subject. For example I do know that Georgia has a complex legal system for cases like this, but I’m uninformed as to its details. However, I doubt very much that the people who run DragonCon can do much about Ed Kramer’s association with them until such time as he is convicted of the charges pending. My lack of knowledge extends to what, exactly, they will be able to do since I do not have access to their charter or bylaws.

However, unless the charter or bylaw so indicate to act against him before the charges are proven in court could conceivably be declared. among other things, unconstitutional.

Nancy A. Collins

February 8, 2013 at 4:01 pm

Hey, A. Vendor– all my books edited by Kramer are Out Of Print. Save for The Sandman antho. But you might want to ask Neil Gaiman how he feels about that. So boycott to your heart’s content.

Nancy A. Collins

February 8, 2013 at 4:07 pm

So–everyone’s saying (since DragonCon won’t come out and say it) that DragonCon have no choice but to give money to an accused child molester?

Well, it’s too bad for them that everyone else has the choice not to.

Nancy, according to Amazon, there are quite a few copies of your book “Forbidden Acts” (http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Acts-Nancy-A-Collins/dp/0380779153) for sale. Ed Kramer is given credit as being the editor on this book, so I assume that he is paid whenever someone buys it; is that right?

If the sale of these books will give money to Ed Kramer, and Amazon is selling these books, will you be calling for a boycott of Amazon as well?

The books for sale on Amazon are being resold by online used bookstores – which means Kramer doesn’t get another penny from them other than when they were originally sold to whichever bookstore/retailer first bought them, probably 15+ years ago based on the 1995 publish date. (The ones listed as “new” are still used copies that are in “like new unread condition” if you read the descriptions, not sold by Amazon, but by various independent used booksellers – the copies were probably picked up from thrift stores, bookstores that went out of business, estate sales or library sales.)

It’s an interesting conversation. Let me point out, if Kramer is convicted of these charges, he likely wont be working for anyone besides the Georgia prison system as an inmate for decades to come.

It also seems his Dragoncon stock is about the only thing his alleged victims could seize in the almost certain civil suit(s) that would follow any criminal conviction. No doubt this hypothetical one-two punch would drive Kramer into bankruptcy. And if you believe Kramer is guilty and a monster, you must consider it a certainty that he’s long ago hidden or disposed of any other assets long ago.

Clearly twice court vetted victims deserve some compensation and the costs of counseling and psychiatric care could still easily exceed any net civil judgment rendered to the victims as a group.

I have little doubt after the decade plus long PR nightmare that the current ownership (Kramer excluded) of Dragoncon would be anything less than relieved and thrilled to pay Kramer’s future dividends to his confirmed victims.

So, ironically, if it IS all about the victims, attending Dragoncon MAY, at some future point, be in the BEST interest of the (alleged, for now) victims.

Steve B should be listed as Swamp Thing’s penciller or artist, not writer. Let’s get our priorities straight, folks.

An Actual Victim...

February 20, 2013 at 3:29 pm

It’s fantastic for you all to feel superior with this actiom. You get to feel like you are doing something good…without ANY actual effort required on your part. find it fascinating that everyone here for the boycott have ignored a key demographic that…I don’t know…might have an opinion on the boycott: actual victims of pedophilia. Like me. Is this because you are uncomfortable being faced with the fact that your actions in NO way help real people who actual suffered through crimes similar or worse to what Kramer did?

Well lets fix that shall we?

I was raped when I was 8 years old. Not molested. Not inappropriately touched. It was full blown rape committed by two male college students. I have a number of physical and mental ailments that were caused by it. I am in my mid 20′s and have to take heavy duty anti-depressants and anti-anxiety just to achieve basic functionality. I am only capable of maintaining a part time job. My medications, even with insurance (that my parents have to pay for because I can’t afford 400 a month), cost 150 a month. How is this boycott of yours going to help that? How is it going to help other survivors? Or even more important…how will this help prevent pedophiles all over the country from hurting more innocent children and adolescents?

Oh that’s right. It won’t.

Instead of wasting your breathe on one man, how about listeni to the other suggestions that have been made? Get DragonCon to advocate for those without a voice. Get them to raise money for charities like RAINN (Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network) or SafeHorizons? Try doing something that will actually benefit real children and not some weird need for a “righteous crusade”.

And guess what? I have been attending DragonCon for 10 years, fully aware of Kramer’s crimes. Do you know why? Because I also know people who have been deeply involved with actually putting on the convention, and the other two owners have done EVERYTHING they legally can to get rid of him. But until he is behind bars, they are stuck. Their choices are either dissolve DragonCon or wait for him to be convicted. And how dare you say that by going I am supporting pedophilia. DragonCon has sometimes been the only outlet I, a geek girl, have had to feel accepted for who I am. Many of my friends who are also survivors, feel the same. We feel alienated enough in our day to day lives. Thank you for making that worse through your ingnorance.

I’ve only been to Dragon*Con three times in the last seven years. As such, I could hardly be called a regular Dragon*Con attendee or a devoted attendee. I’ve also been aware of the Kramer case since sometime around 2006 and followed what I could of it. I’ve also followed Nancy’s crusade, sometimes near fanatical crusade, for some time now as well. I’ve also seen her say things that don’t quite jibe with reality.

As such, I can’t take Nancy A. Collins, her supporters or her boycott seriously.

Half of the time that I’ve seen her speak on this, she speaks in ridiculous generalities and says inane things like Dragon*Con knowing what it has to do and needing to “finally” getting around to doing it. I certainly agree that Dragon*Con knows what it needs to do, but, unlike in Nancy’s world, they’ve actually been trying to do it. They have tried to buy him out, they have tried to push him out, and they have even withheld some of the annual dividends he gets from the convention. This is in part what Kramer has brought legal action against Dragon*Con over. And that legal action by the way is part of a problem for Dragon*Con doing any of the things that Nancy and her supporters seem to believe are just as easy as snapping one’s fingers.

Dragon*Con cannot simply dissolve itself and reform as a new entity. Beyond just the business end of this, the long term contracts and business arrangements they’ve made and the commitments that they’d now be on the hook for, the legal actions Kramer has launched against them makes it illegal under Georgia law for them to dissolve. It simpler words; it’s against the law for the to do anything like that while the legal action against them is ongoing.

Now, Nancy’s usual answer to this that Dragon*Con rakes in tons of money and can afford lawyers who know how to do these things. Here’s a newsflash for Nancy and anyone else who subscribes to this ridiculous line – Dragon*Con has already hired lawyers with its money because Kramer has actually sued them. And would you like to know the type of advice that a good lawyer that that kind of money can afford to hire will tell their client? Well, among other things, they might just tell you to not break the law and certainly to not break the law to push out or shortchange a business partner or part owner; especially as that would then enable that business partner or part owner and his or her lawyers to get an amazing settlement/payday.

And, of course, those pushing for the boycott have an answer for this. The problem is that the boycott supporters, sometimes the same supporter, will give this answer and this answer directly contradicts their standard narrative. You see, Dragon*Con could all but destroy itself and in the process hand over to Kramer a massive payday and that would be just fine and dandy. This answer does seem counterproductive to their stated cause of cutting Kramer’s funds off, but they claim it’s not. The answer they give is that Kramer is up to his ears in creditors from various debts up to and including unpaid legal fees to past lawyers. Any award Kramer would get, even one in the seven figure range, would not last long at all.

But this little bit of “logic” that they love to answer with, as I said above, contradicts their own regular narrative. If a theoretical seven figure settlement would evaporate faster than a puddle on a hot summer day, how is this supposed $150,000 annual payment, and that number is pre-tax and pre-living expenses, doing such a great job of paying all his bills and affording him teams of top level lawyers to keep him from facing trial?

Hey, here’s an idea. Maybe the problem hasn’t been the lawyers that Kramer can hire, but rather the seemingly incompetent criminal justice system in the Gwinnett area. I’ve dealt with people on various forms of house arrest in both my personal life over the years as well as my professional life as a police officer. Do you know what they do in areas with a competent criminal justice system and courts? They actually check up on you randomly, nice little surprise visits, especially when you’re a known problem child, to make sure that you’re actually at home like you’re supposed to be. You know what else they do? They actually check ahead of time to verify that the number you’re suppose to call in from on a daily basis is in fact a land line attached to the residence and not a cell phone. And why do they take these steps? Gee, maybe to make sure that the person on house arrest can’t go swanning about the country for weeks at a time while fooling you into thinking that they’re sitting at home.

People from a competent system don’t get search warrants written so poorly and so broadly that they’re ruled unconstitutional by both both state and federal standards. They also don’t seize in a raid evidence and declare to the press that the evidence is around 200 videos of a pornographic nature, some including questionable acts between men and boys, and publicly push that narrative for almost two years before not actually entering the tapes as evidence because the tapes are not in fact pornographic and include such steamy stuff as The Blues Brothers, Gladiator and Conspiracy Theory. Do you know why you don’t do this if you’re part of a competent system? Because you’ve just handed even the dimmest defense team the ability to cite this and other acts and claim that the jury pool has deliberately been fed false information to create a bias and place into the minds of prospective jury members the idea that the evidence of the prosecution is actually stronger than it really is and create a delay by moving that the prospective jury pool is now tainted and invalid. And, oops, that’s basically what happened.

If Collins, Bissette, their longtime supporters and new to the boycott screamers like the ever obnoxious Don Murphy actually gave a damn about the victims or seeing Kramer actually see a trial before he dies; they might actually be using this attempt at getting social media and other forces behind the boycott to instead shine a spotlight somewhere useful. Like, say, the court system that has allowed this to drag out for 13 years now and to let them know that the eyes of the nation are now more and more focusing on them in this matter. Maybe then they’ll finally get their act together.

But Nancy has proven more and more over the years that that’s not what she actually cares about.

Boycotting Dragon*Con to try and get at Kramer is stupid; it’s beyond foolish at this point. And it won’t really hurt Kramer in the least or speed up the process of his going to trial. All it does is go after and hurt the people connected to Dragon*Con who have been trying to distance Dragon*Con from Kramer and the pro-Kramer. All it does it hurt the people connected to Dragon*Con who didn’t do the vile things that Kramer is accused of. All it does is hurt the people who look forward to attending Dragon*Con and love the convention and what they feel the convention has given them.

But Kramer? Nah. From everything I’ve seen of the case via publicly accessible legal documents and their local news coverage; Nancy could get her wish and Dragon*Con could be destroyed and in ruins by the end of 2013 with Kramer now cut off from even a single penny of profit from it and Kramer could still put off a trial for easily another five or six years with the aid of a semi-competent public defender since every other part of the equation will still be the same.

Boycotts are, by their nature. designed to get someone who is acting in a manner that the boycott doesn’t like to change their actions to one that the boycott sees as acceptable. The people running Dragon*Con right now have been doing everything that they legally can, They’re trying to do the right thing. Boycotting Dragon*Con right now is like disliking a particularly toxic talk show host and then boycotting the radio station because they carry him AFTER they’ve already announced that they’re releasing him.

You want to pretend that you’re actually doing something? Feel free to keep going after Dragon*Con. You want to pretend that you actually care about the victims? Feel free to keep going after Dragon*Con. You want to actually do something useful? Leave Dragon*Con alone and focus your efforts on shining a spotlight on the legal system and the court that Court has acted so stupidly that they’ve been found to have violated the Fourth Amendment (See, State v. Kramer, AO2A1846, March 26, 2003) and allowed this to drag out for 13 years.

But if you just want to feel like you’re doing something without actually doing anything? Feel free to follow Nancy in her damned fool crusade.

Or you can get your head out of your ass, acknowledge the elephant in the room, merely refuse to give it money and encourage others to do the same.

You forget a few key things in your fallacious statements, such as DC being less than honest over the years in their previous claims to have severed all ties to Kramer.

But please, stuff more strawmen and tell us all how following a “fool crusade” is somehow worse than supporting a sex predator.

“You forget a few key things in your fallacious statements, such as DC being less than honest over the years in their previous claims to have severed all ties to Kramer.”

Really? That’s what they’ve been doing? Funny, but I’ve seen statements from Dragon*Con over the years now, most attributed to “a spokesperson” and one attributed to Pat Henry, where they acknowledge that Kramer was still a part owner while pointing out that he has been removed from having anything to do with organizing or running the convention.

Hey, here’s one from March of 2009.
“Although he is a minority shareholder in the corporation that runs Dragon Con, he no longer has control over management decisions,” the spokeswoman said. “That loss of control may be what motivated him to bring these baseless allegations. Dragon Con has enjoyed great success since Mr. Kramer left, and we do not think a court will second guess the way the current management has run it.”
http://airlockalpha.com/node/6112

Here’s a piece from 2002
“While Kramer is still a major Dragon*Con shareholder, no dividends were issued last year on the private stock, says Henry, adding that his longtime associate no longer has any other official connection to the event he ran like a ringmaster for 14 years.”
http://clatl.com/gyrobase/the-wizard-of-dragoncon-stands-trial/Content?oid=1235454&showFullText=true

And there’s more out there that covers points in between as well.

Gee, ain’t that just amazing. If you actually LOOK AT the reporting on the case and the court information, rather than, say, just believing the claims of someone with a boycott agenda, you actually discover these nice things called facts.

As I said above, I’ve known about the Kramer situation since around 2006. I’ve actually looked up facts over the years. I actually knew about the fact that between 2004 and 2006, Henry tried to buy Kramer out, thus meaning that Kramer still owned shares in Dragon*Con, and reportedly eventually offered as much as $500,000 to do it. I also knew before the recent flap that Henry reportedly decided to try and simply withhold Kramer’s dividend until Kramer threatened legal action. All of this news is out there. All of it has been out there. It’s not my fault or the fault of the Dragon*Con owners not named Kramer that you couldn’t be bothered to know what you’re talking about.

Take my head out of my ass? It’s been out for a very long time. Why don’t you try taking yours out of Nancy’s for a while.

Funny, how you admittedly haven’t been following this story as long as I have, yet claim to know the facts. It’s clear that you don’t or merely ignore the inconsistencies concerning DC’s position on Ed Kramer. This includes a charity for Ed’s legal defense from 2001-03 at the con and statements Pat Henry has made regarding Ed’s innocence while claiming that the allegations were merely a conspiracy. Years later, Pat Henry is quoted as saying Ed had no further connection to DC, a position he revised in 2009 when Ed sued for more money.

I’ll leave it to you to go to Creative Loafing, Journal-Constitution, Gwinnett Daily Post and several of the news stations offices to pour through the archives and see that I’m right. Some of us have done our homework and been keeping up with the class, but you’re not one of them. Many of us knew Kramer personally, have done business with him and are wagering on which childhood friends will come out with stories of Ed’s abuse next. I’m not following Nancy’s lead here as I stopped going to DC after Ed was arrested.

As for Ed’s dividend, well, you seem to have some factual errors there. According to the lawsuit, Ed wasn’t suing for his dividend, but claimed DC merely under-reported sales and sued for MORE money. DC settled for an undisclosed figure and you’d might see that if you used legitimate news sources, rather than DC statements. funny how they infer the lawsuit had something to do with forcing Ed out, when Ed was suing for more money and got it.

Anyway, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about and I post this less for your benefit, but more for other folks who would be so eager to buy into whatever nonsense DC is peddling this year. Continue going ’round with your head up your ass. You’re merely being foolish.

-oh and Henry’s claims that he’s been trying to buy Ed out are a new one. These came this year after he could no longer deny or marginalize Ed’s involvement.

Hey, VJA, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I know all that and more. Click my name. I discuss all of that in my post on the subject and have links in my post to everything you address and more.

But I can understand you liking to talk about things you know nothing about.

“Some of us have done our homework and been keeping up with the class, but you’re not one of them”

And you were looking in the mirror when you typed that bit.

I also like how your entire response dodged the issue that you were flat out, 100% wrong in your prior post. No wonder you like blind, damned fool crusades. No need for facts or rethinking positions when facts are presented.

Hello pot, my name is Black. You ignore facts yet fail to raise any issues to be addressed and I’m very sorry that I’ve not provided links for you to look up. Once again, do your own homework, which will involve hard-copy archives or a trip to the library. Most of us were reading it as it happened, whereas you didn’t and are just a slow learner, good for parroting the current DC revision of events. Would it help you if I made a timeline with visual aids? The truth isn’t merely out there. It’s been published in numerous sources. DC gives Kramer money, supported him openly when public opinion was in Kramer’s favor, then denied ever supporting him once the tides turned.

Either way, Kramer still gets money from DC and while DC and supporters try to marginalize this (and have for years with ever-changing stories), this is money that has gotten him sprung from jail and out preying on young boys again. That’s reason enough not to support it.

And you’re still dead wrong.

“I’ll leave it to you to go to Creative Loafing, Journal-Constitution, Gwinnett Daily Post and several of the news stations offices to pour through the archives and see that I’m right.”

“oh and Henry’s claims that he’s been trying to buy Ed out are a new one. These came this year after he could no longer deny or marginalize Ed’s involvement.”

You read, you see, you ignore, you say silly things showing that you read, you see and ignore. Wash. rinse. repeat.

One of the links I provided disproving your statement from the other day is in fact a link to a 2002 Creative Loafing article. Should be an obvious sign that I’ve looked into this beyond just Dragon*Con’s statements and farther back than just when I first heard about it.

In the blog piece I wrote, I supplied almost 50 links, many to the sources you cite and others like them, at the bottom of the post. I have been researching this. And the discussion of the attempts at a buyout or the withholding of dividend payments are not merely just Henry’s recent claims. But feel free to keep believing that.

And I personally don’t care if you “were reading it as it happened” it or not. We just lived through 8 years of a Bush presidency and the first 4 of the Obama presidency. People had and have been reading about those as they happened and are continuing to happen. There’s certainly more press on those and more publicly available information on them as well. It still doesn’t seem to stop a small army of people who “were reading it as it happened” to still get multiple facts wrong when they decide that they have an ax to grind or a crusade to pursue.

And your ability to look facts in the face and read information from specific sources that you then ignore and tell others that they should investigate tells me all I need to know about you and why you would support something like this boycott being promoted by someone who seems to share that habit more and more of late.

My reason for supporting a boycott against DC is fairly simple: Ed receives money from it and has used said money to get out of jail and prey on more boys throughout the country.

Now, DC, Pat Henry included, have been less than forthcoming over the years and often changed their stories. It’s unfortunate that not all archives are on the Interwebs, but they exist. To go back to a source you previously cited, we see Pat Henry claiming that no dividends were paid but demonizing the victims.

“Pat Henry believes the alleged victims’ accusations are part of a setup: ‘I’ve heard from the mother’s lips that you can’t trust a word those kids say.’”

Whether Pat is trying to cheat Ed or vice-versa has been subject of lawsuits. That doesn’t negate that fundraisers have been held for Ed’s defense at DC nor that he was booked as a guest in 2008 (which DC now claims was cancelled).

The elephant in the room here is that giving DC money is giving Ed money. That DC has been inconsistent in how they treat Ed and frequently revise their stories is only relevant to the degree that DC either mismanaged or merely managed by spineless people who care more about money and image over being in the financial bed with a child sex predator.

I’m not really sure what your point is other than to denounce people who don’t want to support a predator in the community whilst rationalizing your own choice to support one.

I’ll address what you said later, VJA, and it does indeed need to e addressed. There’s certainly a point in your post that others have made that I find absolutely mind-boggling in the foolishness of the point whenever it’s brought up. But I work 4 to mids and have to get going in a minute.

For now, I need a rather substantial favor because I do not want to have someone pulling a fast one or causing anything here to be unfair to Nancy.

Earlier this morning, right after my blog registered referrals from here as well as other forums that Nancy and I have both been in where this is being discussed, I had someone post a comment to my Dragon*Con Boycott post who claims to be Nancy, writes like Nancy and makes the same points that Nancy makes elsewhere.

If it’s her, I have no problem with the post being there. If it’s not, I want to take the appropriate steps with it. Since I’m assuming that CBR admin know that the Nancy A. Collins posting here is the real Nancy A. Collins…

Can someone here who knows her let her know that someone posted there and have her either verify it or confirm that it’s in fact not her with a post here on this forum? I’d really appreciate it as I really don’t want something there that is falsely speaking for as her.

Thank you.

Sounds to me like you’re dodging the point, Jerry. It’s real simple: many of us Atlanta folks (formerly in my case) stopped giving DC money when Ed Kramer got busted. DragonCon money has helped Kramer get out of jail (no denying this) and prey on other boys.

Who is cheating whom in the DC boardroom is of little relevance and only really speaks to the dishonesty all around and there’s plenty of it on that side. The objective statement remains valid: whether tacitly or implicitly, in word and deed, DC supports Ed, has since his arrest and has enabled him to victimize more boys.

To support DragonCon and possibly Titan Books (last time I visited for a good laugh in 2008, the clerk denied the stores involvement with Kramer, ever).

Consequently, sweet pea, I enjoyed talking to the Brothers Barbarian producers as well as putting them in-touch with Danny Porter. They did the right thing. DC did not and will not.

Jerry? Are you going to come back and set me straight on this or must I join the throngs of adoring readers on your blog?

I know you’re a busy guy so I’ll reiterate my position: I refuse to give Ed Kramer money because he’s a fucking pederast . That includes any businesses he owns. I’ve kept up with the case since his arrest and even dropped the dime on him to the DA because I truly loathe sex predators. There are plenty of other cons out there and I don’t care to listen to DragonCon’s litany weak excuses when they have been supporting him.

Please explain to the class why this position is, as you said, mindbogglingly foolish and explain your position. How should we, y’know, people who are affected by this conduct ourselves? Should we just turn a blind eye and bitch about how this is giving a bad name to sci-fi fandom? Should we behave similarly to those intrepid Penn State fans who stood by their banner on the verge of lynching the victims?

Tell us, Jerry. We’re all ears and seeking your sage guidance.

Jerry Chandler

March 1, 2013 at 3:31 pm

I actually posted just after midnight when I got home. It went into moderation.

Trying again….

“Sounds to me like you’re dodging the point, Jerry.”

Uhm… No. See, I have this thing called a job. It requires me to be there for X number of days a week at specific times each workday. See, when I say that I have to cut out to go to work it’s because I have to cut out to go to work.

“To go back to a source you previously cited, we see Pat Henry claiming that no dividends were paid but demonizing the victims.”

It’s only demonizing them if it’s not true. And neither you nor I know if he was told that or not. I’ve certainly learned in my job that you can have people who you wouldn’t trust to honestly tell you the weather make accusations against people with all the sincerity in the world. Unfortunately, I’ve also learned in my job that those people are occasionally telling the truth even if the other 99% of everything that comes out of their mouths is a lie. Henry may well have been telling the truth then, it just ended up that the kids were telling the truth this time.

Anyhow, as to the mind boggling stupid stuff being thrown around…

I am utterly amazed at the people who say that they dragged their feet for 12 years over separating themselves from Kramer or cite comments made in the immediate period after Kramer’s arrest and act like there’s something wrong with them for having defended Kramer when this stuff started. Of course they did.

Maybe you and the people you surround yourself with are a bunch of sad, pathetic excuses for human beings, but, thankfully, not everyone is. Most people out there when a friend or coworker who they trust is accused of a crime don’t automatically assume that an accusation equals guilt and that the person should be thrown under the bus at the first breath of a charge and then publicly stoned. And thank God for that.

I know people who have been falsely charged with crimes. In one case, a friend of mine was charged with rape. He went through a year of hell before it was proven that the charges were false. He certainly found out who his friends were in that year. We had a case in our local news not long ago where charges like this were lodged against a teacher. Turned out the kids were lying. I’m sure he was thrilled to find out how many people he knew and counted as friends were, obviously, like you. The sad truth is that fortunately, and, conversely, unfortunately, most people that aren’t screwed up in the head or out to get something from the incident don’t throw their friends under the bus if they’ve been accused and the friends doubt their guilt.

So, yeah, many of the people in his life at the time committed the heinous crime of being decent human beings who believed in the innocence of a friend they trusted. And certainly some of the stupid crap that happened in the Gwinnett courts and jails at the time only added fuel to the fire of that belief. So, yes, a few years went by where they didn’t just assume that an accusation equaled guilt. And, yes, they spoke out for their friend. And, yes, they even tried to raise funds for Kramer’s defense by organizing auctions on the side and through Eric Watts and the Trek Trak. And yes, dealers, vendors and genre personalities donated items and aided the events.

Of course, that did change. You do know that there was a threatened boycott of Kramer being discussed in 2004 and 2005, right? Except it was the pro-Kramer defenders who wanted the boycott called on at that time. Kramer’s legal games were starting to become a little more evident and he was giving reason to doubt his story. A number of his defenders stopped being as vocal in their defense of him at that time and Dragon*Con clamped down on and ended having auctions connected to Dragon*Con.

So, yeah, people were guilty of acting like decent human beings who trusted a longtime friend and associate that they believed to be innocent. Hey, why don’t we drag them out into the street and publicly stone them all for being so evil and vile as to have placed their faith in a friend’s word and character. They got conned, just like so many other people did by Kramer.

It took a few years, but Kramer started making his shenanigans in court far more obvious and his guilt seemingly more likely for the people that trusted him. And it’s very obvious that a lot of these people then started distancing themselves from him. Did everyone? No. Does he still have defenders? Yes. Are they likely idiots? Yes.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t share your desire for or glee in attacking and punishing people who were essentially conned by a slimeball because they acted like, at core, decent human beings who believed their friend. But, hey, who knows? Maybe we can all get lucky and the world will soon reshape itself into the one that you and Nancy seem to want it to be where everyone abandons, throws under the bus and then attacks a friend over accusations whether or not the accusations ultimately turn out to be true or not. I’m sure it would be a much better place of we all acted like that.
“Consequently, sweet pea, I enjoyed talking to the Brothers Barbarian producers as well as putting them in-touch with Danny Porter. They did the right thing. DC did not and will not.”

Yes, because giving someone their $500 back because you don’t want to their money funding your low budget net series project just so compares to the complexities of dealing with a business the size of Dragon*Con. Yeah, it’s just like snapping your fingers it’s so easy to resolve the problem.
I’ll spell it out for you. If Dragon*Con does go down, if it does disband as a corporation, it would take them a year or more at best to properly reform. Rebuilding the convention itself isn’t going to be as easy as the many idiots out there seem to want to believe it is either. The sour taste they’ll leave in the mouths of the 5 hotels as they break multi-year contracts worth tens of thousands to a hundred thousand dollars or more with will likely linger. Good luck with trying to start another big SF convention in the city any time soon. I would good money on the business people of Atlanta not being too happy to deal with ‘those flighty’ SF people again in the near future. And if it goes down it takes the livelihood of the other investors down with it; especially if lawsuits start over broken contracts. This isn’t like bankruptcy. They’d still be on the hook for things. But then you likely see that as acceptable collateral damage.

And then, of course, there’s the little issue of Kramer suing them into the ground. Let’s say that they dissolve, which Georgia law won’t allow right now anyhow, in order to force out a partner that won’t sell out. Gee, cut a man out of his due by displaying obvious intent to defraud…

Yeah, Kramer won’t make a small mint off that one, will he? Let’s say he lets them do it. What happens? Kramer gets what’s owed him as holder of shares. So he gets a huge payday from the company dissolving. Nancy herself will tell you that they make millions in memberships alone.
But I thought the goal of the boycott was to get Dragon*Con to do what they “know” they should do and “need” to do and cut Kramer off from the money that pays his legal fees. How exactly does handing him a lump sum that dwarfs the, somewhat inaccurately referenced, $150,000 “annual” dividends cut him off from the money that supposedly pays all his legal fees? It sees to me like you lot WANT HIM to have a nice, hefty war chest. Doesn’t really look like the goal has been that well thought out VS the boycott’s rhetoric unless, say, the goal is to attack and hurt the convention itself and everyone around it and not in fact Kramer.

And about some of the people around it…

The, at last look, 21-25 million dollars it brings in to Atlanta really does matter. The “oh, the dealers will just go to other cons” I see from many tells me that most of you have not discussed this with many of the people who make their living selling at cons. I have. Many would tell you that the majority of the smaller cons they do each year cover basic operating expenses. They break even on the con and maybe make a little extra and can pay for most of their restocking of merchandise. But they’ll also tell you that there are those 2 or 3 cons each year where they make almost all of their real profit and they look forward to those cons. It’s those 2 or 3 cons that pay for their personal expenses as well as their ongoing business ones. Otakon gets mentioned from time to time when I talk to dealers. Anime Boston gets a mention sometimes. New York Comic Con gets a lot of mentions, but I’m also told that the overhead there minimizes their profitability a bit. But Dragon*Con? I’ve spoken to a number of dealers who work the convention circuit and cite Dragon*Con as easily a third of their profits in any given year.

For those wondering why I ask these questions at cons and fests – My wife is a quilter by trade and was looking into working the circuit a few years back before our second child put a few things on hold.

But, yeah, I can see how something that huge and complicated in its nature relates somehow in your mind to handing a guy back his $500.

“The objective statement remains valid: whether tacitly or implicitly, in word and deed, DC supports Ed, has since his arrest and has enabled him to victimize more boys.”

Well, I would suggest that your statement is wrong. See, I know that the simple minded want to claim that Kramer is responsible for every delay in this and for this thing dragging out this long and then blame Dragon*Con for that since he receives dividends from them, but there are problems with that. I’d put the lion’s share of the blame, easily half for sure, on the Qwinnett County legal system.
Seriously, at what point does a court system get a clue? Hey, let’s go ahead and let him say that he’s not physically competent to stand trial but grant him time to travel and care for his ill, cancer stricken mother (at least before she died) without questioning the apparent contradiction in his abilities to do this VS simply giving testimony. Hey, let’s put him on house arrest, take the bracelet off and not bother to have anyone make surprise visits by the house or even check to see that the phone he has to call in on from home is in fact a land line connected to the house and not in fact a cell phone with a local area code. Hey, let’s make our case look like it’s based on lies, smoke and mirrors by declaring that we’ve taken over 200 videos of a pornographic nature that includes questionable activities with children from Kramer’s home and the, later on down the road, not use them as evidence because you have to admit that the tapes are not pornographic and that you could by most of them off the shelves of the local Walmart. Hey, let’s pull some stupid garbage that gets our cases delayed, not just Kramer’s, but every single case before the court, because our entire potential jury pool is declared invalid.

You know what, I know a thing or two about the legal system. Out here in the real world, on the other side of this little computer screen, I’m a cop. I’m a cop from a family of cops and, duh, because of my job I have a lot of friends and some family who are cops, deputies, lawyers and clerks in the local and state courts. There’s a pretty big chunk of fandom in all of those professions and I’ve introduced most of them, the ones who were not already going, to Dragon*Con and a good number of them have gone and enjoyed it. With this flap started last month, I supplied a bunch of them with links and information. And that list includes news sources that I’ve known about for years that you oh so laughingly told me above that I should learn about and investigate. You know what? Every single person that has looked into this and continues to look into this just shakes their heads and wonders about how retarded the people running the courts down there are. Not a single one of them thinks that Kramer is more than 50% responsible for the delays in this. One of the lawyers I know said that the way things look from what he’s seen that the dimmest public defender he knows could have that court dancing in the palm of his hand.

You could take every cent he gets from Dragon*Con away from him, especially given that he had and has other streams of revenue and the $150,000 per year number being tossed around is not entirely accurate, and he could still have dragged this out for years on end. That’s why a bunch of people and I think that, rather than idiotically boycotting Dragon*Con, the intelligent course of action would be to shine a spotlight on the case and on the courts. Maybe if they actually feel like the eyes of the nation are on them they’ll get their act together. And now would be a great time to do that since Kramer is very likely closer to actually getting placed into a court and placed on trial now than at any other time in the last five years.

(Oh, a side not on that $150,000 thing – Someone please get hold of Tim Lieder and tell him to stop making a damned fool of himself in various forums by throwing around that “$1.8 million he’s made in the past 12 years” nonsense in reference to Dragon*Con and causing others to make fools of themselves by parroting him in their pro-boycott arguments. Seriously, please, stop him before he stupids again.)

We could be doing something useful here, but Nancy wants to waste time and energy on this silliness. She wants to call for a boycott and raise a unit to support her when she could be raising an army. Seriously, put a call out to focus the attention on the courts and on making a huge noise about it being long overdue that this POS face his day in court and his accusers and, bonus, cut the Kramer cancer out of the con once and for all and you could have a huge movement going on. Certainly the people that love the con will respond to that more positively than to a boycott being pushed in many quarters on half-truths and speculation. But, no, we’re just going to spin our wheels and divide the community and watch as Kramer laughs at all the silly people doing what he himself has been doing of late; going after and attacking the Dragon*Con and Henry.

Going after Dragon*Con, especially now, does nothing to hurt Kramer. Not a damned thing. It’ll hurt a lot of other people who don’t share in his crimes though. Feel free to pat yourselves on the back.

“I’m not really sure what your point is other than to denounce people who don’t want to support a predator in the community whilst rationalizing your own choice to support one.”

Aren’t you so cute.

We’re talking about a hugely complicated matter that involves some ridiculous legal maneuvering, complicated business issues and complex business laws and has an impact of a greater or lesser degrees on over 55,000 people, hundreds of businesses, maybe even thousand by now, and, to a small degree, the city itself. We’re talking about what is or isn’t the smartest and best way to see to it that a POS pedophile gets his day in court and gets his ass dragged to jail ASAP; a mutually desired goal by the way.

But you just want to pull out the tired “we hate the pedophile/you support the pedophile” argument. Here’s a hint – When that’s what you have to resort to, you’re basically telling everyone that you’ve really got nothing left and that you’ve lost the debate.

Wow, you’ve said a whole lot of nothing there. This is pretty simple: don’t give Kramer money and you’re not helping him. As previously stated, I’ve gone beyond merely not giving him money, but then again, since middle school, I knew lots of guys who were “Ed’s boys.” There’s nothing “cute” about that as you’ve said. I found it creepy and disturbing at 12. What the fuck is your excuse?

Now you can keep stuffing strawmen or hope I slip on the boatload of red herrings you’ve spilled out, but it’s still very simple: DC money has freed Ed. Blame the legal system all you like, but without the money, his legal dream team wouldn’t have fought his way out to fondle more boys in motel rooms (my friends and family in the Tristate thank you).

You can claim that seeing Ed imprisoned is a “mutually desired goal,” but the money, fundraisers and previous statements tell another story and those facts outweigh the bullshit you’ve spewed off here. Indeed, you’re towing the DC line and can’t seem to make up your mind where you stand. YOu denounce it, yet you give it money, claiming it doesn’t hurt. I merely don’t take the chance. It’s not been a question for me. Initially? Don’t give DC money unless Ed is exhonerated and let others know why. After a short time, it became apparent that Ed was guilty and using some very high-priced lawyers to help him slither out, which he did.

As for “shining a spotlight on the case,” well, I have. I’ve let lots of people know about it. The $500 from Bros. Barbarian is insignificant, but their statements to the prosecution that Ed was perfectly able to hike through the woods for many hours with camera gear is further evidence that he’s fit to stand trial and in good health (Ed’s legal excuse for being sprung in the first place). So I’ve directly as I could struck out against him as I was the one who contacted Bros. Barbarian and convinced them to go forward as well as talking to the DA’s office to arrange the conversation.

You’ve done nothing but rationalize and call people like me ridiculous, idiotic and whatever. Personally, I don’t value your opinion enough to give that much merit and I’ll explain why later.

But that’s neither here nor there. I don’t buy the $150,000 per year figure either. I’m guessing it’s a lot more when he owns more than a third and DC keeps hitting record-breaking nubers. Of course, even if he is imprisoned, he will still own that big hunk of DC (same amount as Pat Henry last I checked) and history tells us that the money will be used to the end of getting Ed sprung again. I don’t know what else Ed owns these days. I’m not taking my chances with Titan, ever again, but I am sure that he owns more than a third of DC and you’ve still not explained how Ed doesn’t receive money from it nor why I should not encourage others to -stop- supporting it as I have for more than a decade.

But here’s why you’re scum:

You’ve clearly demonstrated how you rationalize your consumer choices and obviously it pisses you off when I say you are supporting a pederast and helped him prey on other boys. I’m glad it does. You remind me of those Penn State idiots when that scandal first broke. Here’s the thing: at least among that set, those folks calmed down and realized how wrong they were about Sandusky. A bunch of dumb, pack-minded jocks show more integrity than the average DC supporter. If anything, supporting DC makes sci-fi fandom look bad as we continue supporting it. Continue leading the charge, asshole.

Personally, if I were Pat Henry, I’d've tried to buy Ed out. If that didn’t work, then I’d've sold my stake in it, moved onto other things (I run my own businesses and can honestly say the almighty buck can be found without supporting a sex predator) and openly denounced it. Instead, with Pat & crew, the money outweighs the victims, past, present and future.

With you, it ain’t about money. It’s about being bovine and having a weekend of good-times with your geek friends. It isn’t even about that. It’s like you idiots are too lazy to just find another con to congregate at, so to hell with whatever kids Kramer may rape next when he buys his way out. You don’t mind that a portion of your ticket helps him, but sure do get upset when somebody points that out to you. You’re spineless; a jellyfish really. You sting anything that goes against you and the current you’re riding, but have neither balls nor backbone. You sicken me.

You DO support a child molester. You do so apologetically and you insult people who take moral issue with it. I don’t expect my minor actions to stop DC, but I will never participate in feeding it even a crumb. You can argue all you like. You merely demonstrate your lack of character and supreme lunacy.

On a further note (not to you, Jerry, I find your comments entertaining but don’t actually respect your opinion).

I started going to cons long before DC, when I was pretty young. They were a great sanctuary for nerd and outcasts like myself to indulge in activities we loved and were sick of apologizing for or being harrassed over (gaming, reading, watchin’ anime and sci-fi, geeking-out over stupid shit that most people look down on).

I always knew there were creepy fucks around, was smart enough to avoid them and had more fun than I can ever remember in those days.

It’s bad enough that these things draw predators like flies to shit, but says something truly pathetic about our set that we can’t even keep from giving the King Troll of con predators a tax and a few little boys to cross the bridge into Fantasyland. What the hell does that say about all of us?

“You DO support a child molester.”

No, I and anyone else going do not. But seeing as how you’re embracing a boycott that’s being built on half truths, if not outright lies, and rumors being passed off as facts and happily regurgitating those “facts” like a happy little parrot, I can understand that you have some issues with reality VS the fun little fantasy world that you live in. You go ahead and waste your time boycotting Dragon*Con and proving that you don’t have a brain between your ears.

Have fun with your boycott and pretending that you’re doing something. Me and the other 50,000 or so attendees won’t miss you in the least.

Yes you do.

Now, please explain to me how Ed Kramer does not own a third of the con nor receives profit from it. Also, tell me how DC has not held fundraisers for Ed’s legal costs and how they never booked him for appearances after his release from jail. You’ve yet to do that.

The assertion rides that you feed it, then you support it. Deny reality all you like. The only half-truths and lies here are coming from DC, Kramer and his lawyers and silly, morally stunted dimwits like yourself. Enjoy giving money to a sex predator.

I’ll be deejaying an outdoor set to a few thousand outside of Gen Con this year, just as I did last year. Too bad people like you will continue giving the rest of us a bad name. You’re garbage.

Oh and I perused your ‘blog’ Jerry.

Nice scathing you give everyone but the dragon. I wouldn’t even call it scrutiny. Here’s a tip: if you research something merely to justify your position, then you’ll be able to cherry-pick all you need. But you won’t actually derive a conclusion based on facts as you’ve arrived at one before you started and it shows in your weak piece.

I thought I was long-winded, but you’re dribbling is shit.


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