Robot 6

Orson Scott Card controversy could draw in ‘Ender’s Game’ film

Harrison Ford and Asa Butterfield in "Enders Game"

Harrison Ford and Asa Butterfield in “Enders Game”

The backlash to DC Comics’ decision to hire sci-fi author and vocal gay-rights opponent Orson Scott Card for its new Adventures of Superman anthology could create ripples felt beyond the comparatively small comics industry.

According to The Hollywood Reporter, the spotlight on Card’s contentious views on homosexuality and same-sex marriage — he’s tried to link homosexuality to childhood molestation, and advocated government overthrow if marriage equality were upheld — arrives at an inopportune time for Summit Entertainment, which is adapting the author’s acclaimed 1985 novel Ender’s Game.

Even as the Twilight Saga studio begins to parcel out promotional materials (Battle School logos debuted just last night) in the buildup to the Nov. 1 opening of the $110 million film, mainstream-media outlets are reporting on the author’s involvement with the National Organization for Marriage, a group dedicated to the opposition of same-sex marriage and gay adoption, and the calls for DC to drop Card from the Superman comic. It makes Summit’s Comic-Con International plans problematic, to say the least.

While having the award-winning author on stage in the cavernous Hall H alongside Ender’s Game stars like Harrison Ford, Asa Butterfield and Ben Kingsley might’ve been a no-brainer a few weeks ago, now that scenario seems riddled with pitfalls (not the least of which are an audience Q&A and the possibility of an organized protest).

“I don’t think you take him to any fanboy event,” an unnamed studio executive told The Hollywood Reporter. “This will definitely take away from their creative and their property.”

Meanwhile, the fallout continues within the comics industry as a petition calling for DC to drop Card from Adventures of Superman has attracted more than 14,000 signatures (a rival campaign in support of the author has just 145). The number of comics stores refusing to stock the issue has grown to at least nine, with four more retailers — including Zaldiva Comics in Oakland Park, Florida, and The Comic Book Shoppe 2 in Ottawa, Ontario — making their decisions known.

“Anti-gay activists like Card can’t expect to spread the same hateful and dangerous rhetoric they once did without it negatively impacting how the public views them,” a spokesman for the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation told the trade paper. “As a board member of NOM, one of the most visible anti-gay organizations, Card is not merely a holder of anti-gay views but someone who has used his own fame and resources to actively make life more difficult for hardworking LGBT people and our families. He might still want the buying public to financially support his creative endeavors, but the public is responding with an affirmative ‘no.’ ”

Adventures of Superman debuts online April 29 and in print May 29.



Can you guys point out to all these OSC fanboys that Orson Scott Card is part of an organization that boycotts companies and petitions companies for dealing with homosexuals?


Can we just shut up about this?
Comics are for everyone, not just liberals, republicans, blacks, British, Children, etc.

Your views on egalitarianism do you credit. To bad Card is so vehemently opposed to that view.

Cancelled my DC pull list this week and already planning on skipping the Enders Game film. OSC won’t get a dime from me.

Roman Polanski is a known rapist and pedophile, and yet is still a highly respected film director. If people can look past rape and pedophilia to respect an artists work, I can’t image they won’t look past an artist who believes homosexuality is a sin. Besides 99% of the film going audience has no idea who OSC is. They would have to pick up a book for that.

While I read his books way back when…and quite enjoyed them, as a bi-sexual man myself and knowing wot he stands for (against)…I have absolutely no intentions of seeing/supporting the movie. And I will inform every single one of my friends and colleagues who are equal rights advocates to do likewise.

Ramone: nice overreaction.

@ Imraith Nimpahis
“every single one of my friends and colleagues who are equal rights advocates”

Advocating that Gays should be allowed to marry, but Christians should not be allowed to express their religious beliefs is NOT “equal rights”. In fact it is the exact opposite of equal rights.

OSC has threatened to overthrow the US government if he doesn’t get his way against the gays.

And this anti-American is writing Superman?

Yes, the backers of Enders Game should have been aware of the insanity of this guy.

What an awful little man……

I won’t read any of Card’s fiction, see “Ender’s Game” or knowingly do anything that puts money in him pocket for him to turn around and use against me.

If you don’t like his views don’t see the movie. I agree with that. That’s your privilege. I don’t like Michael Moore, so I don’t go see his movies or buy his books. But, I wouldn’t protest him appearing at Comic Con or an event I plant to attend. I just won’t go to his panel.

But, when you start interrupting him, heckling him, and try to prevent people from hearing him speak at events like Comic Con, you’ve crossed a line. He should be allowed to speak as much as GLAAD should be allowed to speak. To not allow him to speak or work because of his views is something Wertham would do. Plus, it’ll ruin your weekend.

For the people who plan to protest OSC at everywhere he goes. Please listen to this conversation:

I don’t understand what the big deal is?

I thought everyone was allowed to have an opinion.

@Tawny – Only if you are a liberal, otherwise you are called names.

@Starlord: Who, exactly, has been advocating that “Christians should not be allowed to express their religious beliefs”? It seems to me that the First Amendment to the Constitution means that we’ll have to listen to Christians whining about how the real world doesn’t align with their fantasy version for a long time to come.

@Tawny: Not if your opinion is bigoted.

Might not agree with views, but then that’s his choice/belief. If you don’t like, don’t watch/read.

@Jadbalja – called names. Really? That’s what you’re trying to protect OSC from?

This man is doing much more than calling the gay community names. He’s ACTIVELY working toward denying a whole segment of the U.S. population certain civil rights.

If it was just him calling me a name, I wouldn’t even pay attention to him. Maybe you and he should try looking at it from out perspective first.

@WONK042 – ORRRRRRRRRR, we could protest what we feel isn’t right. We have a right to do that.

Can’t we all just chill out about this. Scott Card is entitled to his beliefs, whether I or any of us agree/disagree with him is irrelevant. If DC were to remove him from the title that would be discrimination, the very thing most people on these forums are complaining about. Scott Card could be the biggest douche on the planet right now but truthfully not buying his books or this Supes title will say more in protest.

Jeff Parker indicated that all the stories in the anthology can be bought individually, so people, you DON’T have to buy Card’s story if you’re buying the anthology digitally.

@Tawny and @Jake: Everyone *is* allowed to have an opinion, even if it is bigoted.

@Jadbalja: OSC says that homosexuals are deviants and criminals. If that’s not calling names…

@Jadbalja: and when those liberals state opinions the likes of you call them unamerican, commies or godless sinners

@ Acer- thanks for that info. So I’ll amend my previous comment to: just don’t buy his issue, that’ll say more in protest than anything in this or any forum.

So Tawny, if someone had the “opinion” that black people are sub-human and inter-racial relations were deviant and should be criminalized, you would be cool with that person writing Superman?

Todd et al;

I don’t plan to give OSC any of my entertainment dollars, nor do I plan to heckle him, but I understand and support the heckling. I don’t think you can equate him and NOM with GLAAD because GLAAD is about achieving equality and NOM is about denying it, with misinformation that hurts a large segment of the population. I don’t see how you can equate the two.

As far as an opinion, everyone is entitled to an INFORMED one. Not all opinions are equal. If you’re Alan Moore and believe in a snake god, that’s not hurting anyone as far as I can tell. If you’re OSC and are on the board of an organization slobbying (spending money) to deny rights for people because you believe they are inferior to you, that’s different.

What changed between now and last year when marvel published card’s work? Does card hate homosexual people or does card hate homosexual behavior?

This doesn’t seem to be support for gay marriage as it is an attack on a religion that advocates for love and against violence.

It’s amazing the number of people that think I’m going to he’ll but yet I maintain a loving relationship with. Just seems religious people of differing faiths that think the other is going to hell can live with love and respect for each other have a lot easier time coexisting than people of faith do with homosexuals in the media.

@Starlord: The difference here is that no one has said Card is not entitled to express his own opinions or deny him fundamental rights. But the right to free speech is not the right to consequences of that speech. If he wants to support ORGANIZATIONS that actively try to deny fundamental rights to others, then people have a right to ORGANIZE boycotts, petitions, etc. In my opinion what Card is doing is fundamentally different and much worse than what these LGBTQ activists are doing because he is trying to have an effect on the laws of this country to deny a historically oppressed group their rights. These demonstrations against Card are not going to have a legal impact against him. They will simply make it harder for him to make money that he might use to support his hateful views.

BTW, I loved the Ender’s Game books long ago. They are great sci-fi and very ahead of their time in many ways. I did not even know about Card’s views until this controversy. Sadly, I won’t be seeing this movie now because I feel very strongly that the LGBTQ population should have all the same rights as the rest of us. I will voice my opinion with my wallet, not with legislation, as Card is trying to do.

Meant to say homosexuals in the media seem more intolerant of what religions think than opposing religions do of each other. Differing religions in our country have isolated problems with each other, but can much more easily accept their differences and understand each other, but if its religion vs a gay lifestyle, gay activist seem much more likely to, ironically, go on a Westbrook baptist style attack

@Christopher Allen – well said.

People either forget his actions and focus on his opinions out of ignorance or just to have something to get on a soapbox about.

Is CBR even a comics site anymore—or is it just Advocate lite? Seriously: every freaking time someone doesnt do what the LGBT communtiy wants we get column after column of endless whining on this site. Calls for bans, stories of personal bulying by “mean bigoted homophobes”, etc. etc.

Oh—“waaaaaahhhh—DC or Marvel hired somebody I don’t like”.

Conversely, everytime there IS a gay character—it turns into a gay pride parade.

The “secret love thats never spoken of” has become the “irritating bleeting that never shuts up.”

OK–we got it OSC offends your sensibilities. I have never read anything the guy ever wrote….but where was all this crying when Marvel had him write Ultimate Iron Man? Non-existenet.

The only reason this is even an issue is because gays seem to believe that DC comics exists solely for them, and to spread their cause. So when DC doesnt get their pre-approval for whom they hire what happenes? They fly into a frenzy over the perceived “betrayal”.

If DC were in existence solely for gay and lesbian dolars, then they would be sold solely in gay and lesbian venues. Get over yourselves. You dont own DC comics.

Other people read comics too. They dont try to get gay activists (who—in a great many cases hate the church) banned from writing comics or drawing them. But, by god, if someone doesnt dare bow down to the world of pc—its the end of the world.

I very much doubt that this will have an effect. i mean, it is not like this is being published at DC. If it were, there might be, but since it is only DC that the comics internet hates, i think the movie should be safe.

Most of you are missing the point!!!

Yes everyone has a right to their own opinion be it liberal, conservative,etc…


Therefore its more than just having an opinion. It is an attack on a segment of the population and any protest of this guy is totally justified

Yeah, Lee, being called a disgusting deviant sinner who is going to destroy society and then burn in hell makes me a bit cranky. I should just be more tolerant!

@kooblah khan: CBR gets advertising money based on the number of people visit the site, post things, etc. So, it’s in their best interest to post “controversial” stories like this and whip everyone into a frenzy.

So Kooblah, if D.C. hired someone who thought black people were inferior deviants, and interracial marriage should be criminalized, would you consider all those who objected to be too “politically correct” for your liking?

“The ‘secret love thats never spoken of’ has become the ‘irritating bleeting that never shuts up.'”

I believe that’s “the love that dare not speak its name.”

@ Glenn Barken—anthropologists state it is often possible to determine the racial category of a person by examining physical remains. You can also determine the sex of a deceased person based on remains. You cannot determine a person’s “sexual inclination” when viewing their remains.

How is being gay a “race”?

It’s argued that its because their brains are wired differently. Its also argued that those given to aggressive and violent behavior have differently wired brains as well. Are murderers a race? Are wife beaters a race? Are child molestors a race?

Some folks are always going to disagree with this behavior, lifestyle, etc, and find it gross. They will learn to tolerate—but the LGBT “community” is going to have to realize that not everyone is going to embrace their culture anymore than different races are suddenly going to start adopting the behaviors and customs of races they dont belong to. Or even respect them.

Gotta love how the petition FOR Card doesn’t actually mention what his views are.

@ Kooblah Khan, it has nothing to do with race. It’s human rights. Race is just another example.

@Glenn–I dont care. I read stuff by Alan Moore who absolutely despises the church. I read stuff from Stephen King—whose politics I dont agree with. I enjoy watching the LOTR films…but in real life I wouldnt cross the street to meet Ian McKellen because he’s a pompous douche. I love Steve Ditko’s art—but he’s a bizarre recluse. I can laugh at comedians that I know hate white people and go on record as saying such. I can admire Ghandi and have no interest in becoming a pacifist, and wasnt born in his far off exotic land. I love Clint Eastwood films….but I am not a big fan of swearing to get your point across, etc…etc…etc…

Do you think there arent black creators in comics who dont like white folks? Howabout women who get upset they dont get as much work as men counterparts—think they may write or draw funnies?

Just because someone’s personal life might be absolutely repulsive, doesnt mean they cant write a friggin’ funny book.

Sorry about the misquote Kevin Melrose—I am just not that in touch with the gay-centric quotes. I knew it went something like that,lol.

“But this guy is ACTIVELY TRYING TO LIMIT THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE by being a member of PROTEST AND LOBBYIST GROUPS and the like.”

I hate this argument. What I keep hearing is, “He has a right to have an opinion, but no right to express it.” Too bad. The First Amendment allows him to voice his opinion, associate with other people who have it, publicly express it, and vote based upon it. That same right lets homosexuals do the same thing. Homosexuals would not have made advancements in expanding social and legal acceptance of their status without the same right to gather, express, and work through the political process.

Free speech: it’s either for everybody, or it’s for nobody.

Kooblah, actually black, white, gay or straight, we all belong to the HUMAN race. Any distinctions based on skin color or sexual orientation are superficial. The same bigotry that existed (and still exists) against black people (often based on strongly held religious beliefs), is what motivates anti-gay bigotry. Simple.

@Adam – I don’t think anyone is arguing he doesn’t have that right, just saying they aren’t going to financially support him in his crusade against them and their allies.

Shouldn’t those kids be much younger?

Free speech that doesn’t allow for bigotry isn’t really very free.

If Card quietly kept his opinions to himself instead of being a hate-monger and actively working against equal rights, I doubt this would’ve been as big a deal.

Just a remindeer to everyone. Summit Entertainment no longer controls the destiny of this film. Lionsgate bought Summit in a leveraged buy-out for $412-million. The boycott of “Enders Game” will be directed at Lionsgate CEO Jon Feltheimer.

As for the philosophical point-of-view, no one has the to right to spread hatred, which OSC does. Hatred is verbal violence. OSC must be removed from writing Superman and the movie based on his book should be boycotted. This is how you fight hate.

If you’re going to boycott, boycott DC Comics as a whole. They hired the guy, so they are financing his financing of a cause you find disreputable. Put your money where your mouth is. If not, please move along.

@Tim–Oh, I get that whole argument, and having libertarian leanings, I even support it. It’s just that I get a nasty vibe of “punish punish punish” out of this whole thing; it seems to go beyond boycott and more to outright ostracization of the individual. Plus, I do feel like a number of the commenters basically believe that contrary opinions should be kept inside the opinion-holder’s head, in a cave, on Mars.

Me, I just want to read a book by whomever brings back Superman’s red shorts, his marriage to Lois, Big Belly Burgers, Soder Cola, the Whitty Banter Show, etc…

The entire Orson Scott Card cconglomerate needs shaking up. He is a homophobe and has usurped his free speech rights in order to spread venom about human beings.

Enders Game will be distributed by Lionsgate Entertainment. Contact them and express your outrage:

Jon Feltheimer, CEO
2700 Colorado Boulevard, Suite 200
Santa Monica, California 90404

Phone: 310-449-9200
FAX: 310-255-3870

Good for you Kooblah.
As for me, there are a lot of personality quirks, political opinions and belief systems that I can look past even if I don’t like them. But bigotry, especially when it is actively promoted, is something that I can not look past.

There is a HUGE difference between douche bags and/or recluses, and racists, anti-Semites, and homophobes.
And yes, homophobe IS the right word. Anyone who holds the irrational fear that gay people are going to destroy society has a phobia of homosexuality.

How does one “usurp” one’s own free speech rights? I think you mean “used.”

Who cares what his personal beliefs are? America is a free country that allows people to believe in whatever they want.

If someone says his beliefs are wrong, they are no better than he is.


While we all here may be for equal rights he is not. My argument is far from being against equal rights.

His actions, and the actions of his groups, want to limit the rights of certain people.

Whatever group of people that is is irrelevant because one day it could be a group that you belong to.

So back to my original point, any protest against someone who protests the rights of a group of people is totally justified.

Considering you can’t find a mention of the petition on other pop culture sites front pages (I didn’t check them all, just a sample of several popular ones), this is a non-story that is being kept alive artificially by people trying to make political hay out of it, not because it’s actually resonating with the public at large (i.e. DailyKos will talk about it repeatedly because it’s a cheap way to rile up their readers; doesn’t mean it’s ever going to end up on the evening news). If it was going to resonate with the larger public, it would have done so by now. The news cycle has moved on.

On a side note, I’m sure DC is thrilled to pay advertising dollars to websites that actively showcase people refusing to carry their product or demanding that others don’t buy DC products (that they themselves weren’t going to buy anyway, as evidenced by the generally lackluster sell-through rate of existing Super-titles). Great use of a marketing budget.

Many years ago i went to a book reading and signing – it must have been 2002 or 2004 by Orson Scott Card. He was very talkative and very, very normal. In fact I was very impressed. He even went about how he was at some point associated with Scientology, but refused to be part of it when he found how really they are. He stayed for a long time to sign everyone’s books. Anyway, he talked about a lot of things and expressed a lot of views, but they all were very logical and genuine. Not for once did he say anything about gays or even religion. Ender’s Game is still my favourite science fiction book, even if it was in crappy translation… So, say what you will, but he is a great writer. His views and beliefs are something else, that I like to keep away from the books….


If all he did was express personal beliefs I don’t think there would be nearly three outrage. However this guy is active in trying to limit the rights of certain people.

That’s the difference with this case. It’s not just another crazy religious person expressing outdated beliefs. It’s somebody committing acts trying to limit the rights of a group of people.

Pick on Tom Cruise, guys, he supports Scientology, a sect that requires its female staff members to go through an abortion.

Puck, that makes no sense what so ever. Think about what you are saying.
If I think Hitlers beliefs are wrong, am I as bad as Hitler?

Defiance Industries

February 20, 2013 at 1:52 pm

If your religion requires you to try and relegate others to second-class citizenry, it’s your religion that’s wrong. You can live by all the silly rules that your chosen invisible sky wizard wants, but the second you try to make someone else live by your goofy rules, you’re in the wrong.

If it wasn’t for people willing to stand up and say that things were wrong rather than just “respecting” the outdated beliefs of a bunch of small-minded bigots, slavery would still be legal.

Somehow I don’t think all those moviegoers in the South who’ll be buying tickets to a war movie will be shedding tears over OSC’s position on gay marriage.

As much as CBR wants the hits, no one outside of a few gay comic nerds cares. Gays are a whopping 3.4% of the American public. Even fewer read comics. Just because a bunch of blokes are getting their chaps in a bunch over this when neither CBR OR THEY said word one over OSC writing for Marvel. Nor do you speak out against the Enders Game comics. But gay hysteria with Superman means hits.

I am glad more people will know about what Card stands for. I signed the “take Card off Superman” petition, but due to Parker’s presence in the first issue (I buy print, not digital) I am buying the first issue (and of course all of the following ones)–but I have also now donated to both Human Rights Campaign and the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. I think it’s better to do something constructive than only complain.

@michael – People on both sides of the political spectrum get upset about Superman and politics mixing. Issue 900 got a negative response from O’Reilly and Huckabee who I doubt have read Superman comic in years. A lot of attention was paid to Bryan Singer directing a Superman movie and whether Brandon Routh was gay and how “gay” the costume was. But less attention was paid towards the possibly gay themes in his X-Men films.

I think it raises an interesting point about the American public’s relationship to Superman and DC’s inability to capitalize on that.

@Bababooey– Oh, come on now. EVERY law that’s passed is a decision to take away someone’s rights, or more precisely, their freedom. (I understand a “right” to be something fundamental to a human person–for example, I have a right of self-defense if someone attacks me. I have a privilege to drive on public roads, but that’s granted by the state by the fact that they’ve created those roads.) The issue that’s up for debate in the public sphere is whether the right to marry should extend beyond one man and woman–and the public is divided on it based on religious, sociological, political, and whatever-have-you reasons. The debate needs to run through the political process to determine if society wants to recognize that as a right or not.

I challenge you to think this one through: are you totally, one-hundred-percent in favor of people marrying and/or having sex with whomever they want? If so, then you need to think the difficulties posed by marriage limitations on number (polygamy), family (incest), and age (usually can’t marry below 16). There are groups–closeted though they may be–who want those legal and social limitations removed as well. Here’s the tough one: do you oppose incest laws? If not, why not? If so, are there absolutely no limits you recognize? If a father and daughter want to hook up, voluntarily and without any weird coercion on the father’s part, do you support that? If so, why? If not, how is that different than the purported right of homosexuals to marry whomever they love, free and clear of state, religious, and social interference? I’m just asking you to think through it–why can the state limit some relationships but not others?

Oh, they should totally bring OSC on stage at Comic Con, that would be a fun time!!!


polygamy- yes, there’s a legit debate to be had about that. as the VAST majority of such groupings are male dominant, if we were to allow it as a culture, there would have to be extremely strict rules about treatment of spouses, number of spouses, number of children, etc. Polygamy is fundamentally destabilizing should it ever truly catch on here for reasons one can easily see if you think it through.

Still, there is an argument there if enough people want to have it. so far there aren’t enough takers.

incest- nope. no debate there. and not enough pro-incest numbers to create one

pedophiles- yeah, it would be HILARIOUS to see someone try to seriously equate that with homosexuality. and yet many morons do.

what you’ve done is create an “ad absurdum” argument in order to make a point.

Sorry, son. That dog won’t hunt.

@ Adam – New Jersey does not prosecute incest when both parties are consenting adults. Yet this doesn’t seem to upset people as much as the idea of two unrelated consenting adults of the same gender getting married.

I can’t wait for the Ender’s Game film!

Ender’s Game is still one of my favorite books of all time.


“Free speech: it’s either for everybody, or it’s for nobody.”

You’re spot on there. Which is why people are very much within their rights when they contradict and, yes, boycott Card. He has every right in the world to be a bigot activist. That’s freedom of speech. What he doesn’t get, thankfully, is freedom from consequences.

Meh, don’t care. Still seeing the movie. Loved the books (and continue to do so). Guy could say he hated middle class white guys and wanted us all to die and I’d still watch & read.

@Victor–See, it’s the “consequences” language I don’t like. That implies punishment: “He thinks X, so I must Y to him.” I am totally, 100% in favor people exercising their economic rights in buying and not buying what publication they want, for whatever reason they want. It’s the attitude I take issue with, because I fear it could lead to a desire for greater backlash. (Somebody, somewhere, would secretly like to give OSC a beating for his views. Thankfully, nobody’s done it yet.)

So for the people that think the boycott is ridiculous, or that we are infringing on OSC’s freedom of speech are baffling me. So a man publicly declares that a segment of the population is worth less than others, and when other people voice out against that, and express our frustration over publicly shared hate, that is wrong. So freedom of speech seems to mean, to some people, that the people expressing the hate are in their rights but the freedom of speech for those he speaks out against becomes void? This entire subject is ridiculous. I have cancelled my DC Pull List, which is not an over reaction, but justifiable when a company hires someone who thinks I am less than a person, and expects me to support them. The fact that someone has an opinion is awesome and everyone should have opinions, but there are consequences this day and age when those “opinions” are aimed towards denying human rights, it becomes more than just an opinion. An opinion is “I don’t like apples.” It changes when that same person says that “People who like apples should not be part of society and I am going to actively try and do just that.” See where opinion becomes a case of human rights? Let the haters hate and decide with your wallet and your name on either petition, whichever one you support, because it is our right to also decry hate and not financially support it. The people that narrow mindedly agree with him will always claim that voicing our concern over his hate is crushing his freedom of speech, so lets use our freedom of choice, and not support the hate.


I’m generally not in favor of prosecuting sexual offenses with no palpable harm. Rape, yes. Coerced incest, yes. Sexual harassment involving unwanted touching, yes. Sexual offenses that violate social mores, no. That doesn’t necessarily mean that society has to approve of them or recognize them, but at the same time, I don’t favor slapping someone with a conviction that takes them away from families and limits future job prospects over something that’s icky or frowned upon, but not necessarily harmful. For example, the military prohibits fraternization–close relationships between officers and enlisted members, because it can show favoritism among ranks and affect good order among the troops. However, frat isn’t usually prosecuted unless a) there’s something really, really harmful going on, or b) it’s brought to light and the parties keep doing it after being told not to. So…no, I don’t have a problem with New Jersey looking the other way in terms of prosecution (again, as long as coercion isn’t involved), though at the same time, I wouldn’t approve of the couple’s behavior or want them getting marital recognition either. Make sense?

@Geoffrey: Look around on Google for something called “genetic sexual attraction.” This incest thing is more common than you think, though it’s still largely closeted. (Alternatively, go read the “Dear Prudence” column over at Slate and prepare to, uh, be surprised.) Anyway, the point of Reducio Absurdum is to try to get the proponent of an argument to clarify exactly what they’re talking about. If you’re going to make a push for free marriage, you’ve got to be prepared to deal with the logical extensions and unintended consequences of the argument. I’m not saying there isn’t a distinction between homosexuality and incest, but if there is one, a lot of people would like to know what it is.


Adam –

There is one argument that trumps Reductio ad absurdum and all other philosophical arguments against gay marriage. It’s the reality test argument. Lots of gay couples have lived together and functioned together in the past decades, and they have not been shown to be noticiably more dysfunctional than straight couples. They have passed the reality test.

Seriously, man. Get some gay friends. See how they live with their partners. Some of them even have kids, from previous marriages before they came out of the closet. You will be stunned by how “normal” they are. Gay marriage is more about getting into paper something that is already a reality.

Now, I am aware that incest fantasies are a lot more common than people admit, just go to a well-stocked porn bookstore or videostore. But I don’t see lots of siblings in stable sexual relationships in real life. They must be real good at being in the closet. I say siblings, because parent/offspring relationships should be discarded out of hand because there is a clear power imbalance in them, even when the parent didn’t use force.

Oh, and one very ironic thing: consider that polygamy and marriage to minors is often seen in a favorable light by cultures that are very much against homosexuality. Gay marriage is as likely to close the door to those other kinds of marriage as to open them. Gay marriage is the acknowledgment that people shoud be free to follow their hearts as long as they don’t coerce others, and also an acknowledgment that gender roles are becoming more fluid. Polygamy often enforces those traditional gender roles in the figure of a powerful male provider and his harem of subservient females. Marriage to minors often displays a severe power imbalance that implies some coercion, the precise opposite of what gays are fighting for.

…like I’ve been saying…the time has come where if you’re not a part of the majority…don’t believe like the majority…and don’t support the majority…you’re on the outs.

I implore everyone to stand on their own too feet for what you believe despite the masses against you.

As a childhood fan of Card’s work, I was certainly bummed when I found out about Card’s views on numerous things–including homosexuality. When you realize that you and a person you basically idolized as a kid wouldn’t get along if you met in real life, it stings. I have since still enjoyed much of his work. In general, I try to keep my feelings on the author/artist separate from the work of fiction, art, whatever you want to call it. I certainly respect anyone who is unable or uninterested in keeping them separated, but this works for me.
As a fan of the Ender’s Game book, I have a completely different reason for avoiding the movie: Those kids in the production still are too old. I know it may have been unrealistic to cast a younger cast, but the age difference is enough that it no longer feels like Ender’s Game to me.

A boycott of the Enders Game movie is misdirected. Unless Orson Scott Card is in a very unusual position as the writer of a book that a screenplay for a movie is based on, boycotting Enders Game won’t cost him a cent. He’s already been paid for the rights to his book. He’s not Stephen King; it would be astonishing if he was entitled to a percentage of the gross for the Enders Game movie (or even the net, which means nothing with Hollywood Accounting). Boycotting Enders Game will only cost the company making and distributing the movie money. Mr. Card will simply laugh all the way to the bank.

@ Rene
“Marriage to minors often displays a severe power imbalance that implies some coercion, the precise opposite of what gays are fighting for.”
British homosexual activist believes in lowering the age of consent and at one point wrote: “The positive nature of some child-adult sexual relationships is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends – gay and straight, male and female – had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy. While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful.”

Can we please step back a little bit and realize that in the end, it doesn’t matter that OSC donates money and serves on the board for groups that campaign against gay marriage. He and his group have no power when it comes to deciding the issue. They really don’t. All they do is raise awareness of their views. They can’t gays from eating in diners or using the same bathroom as straight people. The only people who can do that are lawmakers and politicians.

I would equate OSC campaigns against gay rights as being the same things as Michael Moore campaigning against the Second Amendment. They can raise a big stink but in the end, does it matter? Do they really have any influence over policy? No.

@ Rene
“It’s the reality test argument. Lots of gay couples have lived together and functioned together in the past decades, and they have not been shown to be noticiably more dysfunctional than straight couples. They have passed the reality test.”
Not so stable after all:
“First, the dissolution rate for male and female same-sex cohabiters was seven and five times higher, respectively, the rate for marriage. Among cohabiters, the differences were smaller: the dissolution rate for male and female same-sex cohabiters was approximately double the rate for different-sex cohabiters.”

Oh and what to make of the fact that homophobia may be genetic?


Consider that social acceptance of sex with minors has been declining steadly since the 1970s. Go watch ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO’S NEST and marvel at how a guy that has sex with a 15-year old girl can be considered the unambiguous hero of a major Hollywood movie. Can you imagine that today?

In the opposite direction, social acceptance for homosexuality has been INCREASING since the 1970s.

I look askance at any arguments that mantain that approval of homosexuality will lead to approval of sex with minors, when the precise opposite has been happening in the real world for 40 years! The more people accept gays, the less people accept sex with minors.

What one guy said in the 1990s is not the position of advocates of gay rights today.


What do you think Prop 8 was all about? NOM has made incredibly strong impacts in both public policy and people’s lives.

I am frankly amazed at the utter callousness I see displayed by “fans” of OSC here. You want to support him? Fine. You thereffore support NOM and therefore HATE. This is not a case of simply expressing an opinion-but an organization that actively works to repress civil rights. Rights, which BTW, whether you personally agree with or not, YOU HAVE NO SAY IN. That’s why they’re called rights. These people have no more right to alter civil rights than anyone else does to theirs. But they spend millions on politics to do exactly that. OSC is a pig. And yeah, you all that want to support him and NOM, you do that. At least we’ll know what you really care and don’t care about.
To those boycotting this freak–BRAVO. You are far from alone. Keep boycotting. We’ll get rid of these pests in NOM eventually.

I have to admit, if Hitler had written a great Superman comic back in the day, I’d want to read it and would buy the trade.

wake up to reality… a boycott can work the other way too!! I have personally spearheaded a support petition for OSC in my area and have been directing people to go to their local comic shop and order the book… last check one of the stores in my area has advance orders for over 150 copies and growing!

so keep grumbling and complaining and we will keep buying

I made the mistake of reading through the sophomoric comments section. I seriously think it’s crazy that some people would make an argument claiming that their “rights to express Christian views” are being undermined. When people try to keep you from being able to marry other Christians, then you’ll get it. Or when you have to hide your Christian-ness to your family and friends in fear of reprisal, then you’ll get it. There’s a huge difference between “I hate you because you were born a certain way” and “I hate you because you’re preaching intolerance and you donate money to organizations that fight equality.” If you don’t see the difference, then you are a special kind of moron. (For the record, I don’t think all Christians are bigots. I have Christian friends who preach love and acceptance.)

Is the film gonna have the same pedophile vibe as the books?

Wow…. Reality check (and others). Hate much?

This isn’t about free speech. This is about giving money to causes to deprive other people of equal treatment under the law.

This is about OSC’s hatred of others and you’ve joined in.

What’s wrong with you?

Hey Starlord,

Religiuos rights do not trump Human Rights. Its really that simple. You can carry on going to church but whats he promoting stops families from coming together, leaves widowed husbands and wives from collecting thier spouses benefits and in general his way of thinking tells young people who are gay there is something wrong with them.

A lot of people here seem to think that free speech should be limitless, but you seem to be forgetting that words have power.

For example, they make unfounded claims linking homosexuality to child molestation. They make statements about the AIDS virus that have no basis in scientific fact, such as that it can be spread by sweat or tears and that more than 50% of all homosexuals are infected. This is disinformation intended to encourage/trick lawmakers into stripping people of their rights; denying them adoption rights, taking their children away from them, and keeping them out of certain jobs. In the worst cases, it even encourages violence.

Orson Scott Card doesn’t just want his voice heard; he is a propagandist fomenting hatred, oppression and violence.

Psst. Someone might want to actually check this out a bit more. This statement is true

“Meanwhile, the fallout continues within the comics industry as a petition calling for DC to drop Card from Adventures of Superman has attracted more than 14,000 signatures (a rival campaign in support of the author has just 145).”

But there is a bit more to it than that.

The 14,000 all signed for free or a donation. The 145 actually paid money to sign. The two links are two different types of petitions sites. One is free and one takes you to paypal to pay. Not saying one is right or wrong trying to point out that by leaving out that fact it tips the meaning even more. The average person is more willing to sign something that is free than something that will cost them money.

This all boils down to hypocrisy. All the advocates who’ve criticized conservative groups for having opinions and boycotting companies are now trying to stop others from earning a living by themselves using economic boycotts and protests to shout over others trying to exercise their own freedoms of speech.

Yes, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences, but everyone’s after DC and OSC with the same vitriol and propaganda they’ve complained has been used against they themselves in the past.

They show that they believe everyone’s entitled to an opinion as long as it’s the same as theirs.

“Religiuos rights do not trump Human Rights. Its really that simple. You can carry on going to church…”
There’s more to religion than just “going to church”. It’s an entire way of living.

Fail people. FAIL. It’s all about Religion this and that, or Gay rights this and that. Fact: Homosexuals do not have the right to appear in a positive light in every piece of fiction, deal with it. Fact: OSC is entitled to his opinions, just like pro-gays are. Fact: Ender’s Game is an amazing work of fiction. Fact: Homosexuals rag on heterosexuals in fiction as much as the other way around. Just get over it, everyone knows you exist, now just chill the hell out and let us make good art.

To @Not Todd, Prop 8 was a piece of policy that was upheld and voted on by the people of California. While NOM campaigned for it, they didn’t have an overall influence over what people voted on behind that curtain.

Also, and I’m surprised nobodies addressed this, doesn’t anyone think that having DC fire OSC for his views would mobilize the anti-gay movement? That harassing OSC would mobilize the supporters of his views? The best thing to do is not buy the book. Don’t see the movie. Plain and simple.

However, you should not stigmatize the people that buy the book or see the movie as anti-gay. “Ender’s Game” is not about homosexuality. I highly doubt OSC’s Superman comic will touch upon the subject. (WB won’t let it) So, lets calm down about the whole the idea that OSC writing Superman will lead to a massive rise in the anti-gay rights movement. People like OSC’s stories, that doesn’t mean they share his views. Paul Ryan liked Rage Against the Machine’s music, he clearly didn’t share their views.

Comic book fans are the most tolerant and open minded people on the planet. We care more about which version of Krypton is proper then the color of a person’s skin or their sexuality. (My experience) If anything I’ve seen more people of different cultures, sexual preference, etc. come together out of their love for comics and super heroes than any advocacy group could imagine coming together. If anything we should focus on our love of Superman. If one party is gay and the other is anti-gay, they should talk about Superman first before their lifestyle. Who knows, perhaps the anti-gay individual find they have a lot in common with the gay individual and put aside their prejudice and say “hey he/she’s okay” and debate whether Post-Crisis or New 52 Superman is the better interpretation of the character.

My point I guess is that an author/artist’s political views don’t have an affect on their interpretation of a character. Let’s see what OSC has to see about Superman and if you don’t like it don’t buy it. If enough don’t buy it, he won’t write the character again. But, don’t deny his fans, or people who are curious about his work, the opportunity to see his interpretation of Superman.

To @Not Todd again. I don’t live in California so I don’t know what NOM’s campaign was like, but I feel it’s safe to assume that the pro Prop 8 voters had made up their mind prior to whatever propaganda NOM spread. Also, NOM was making people aware of an issue, is that not the proper thing to do in a democracy? Especially when it’s up to the people to make a decision?

I say this not because I support OSC’s views but because I fear a litmus test to write comics being implemented. A person’s views and what they campaign for are just that, theirs. What a creator does in their spare time does not matter, what matter’s is there work. If OSC is advocating intolerance toward homosexuals in his Superman comic then you can say there is a problem. However, I don’t think that is the subject of the comic and therefore I don’t think there will be an epidemic of Superman fans becoming homophobes. I really don’t. And if someone can cite an example of that, perhaps I’ll change my stance. Until then the arguments I’m hearing from the anti-OSC crowd are the same as Frederic Wertham saying Batman turns kids into homosexuals and pedophiles.

That’s very trickily sensitive indeed.

Let’s have David Duke write a Superman comic too! He’s a respected commentator and once ran for governor of Louisiana.

We just may be part of the “comparatively small comics industry” but I think we’ve been excellent at pointing out the hateful ideas of this bigot. I know I canceled my orders of DC comics when I heard about his hiring…..and published the link to the petition on my Facebook page. Now Sprouse has quit the title and it won’t be published in issue one….maybe never! Sure comics are for everyone….racists, bigots, and no-nothings too but we have a right to express our opinions!

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