Robot 6

Stan Lee responds to David Goyer’s She-Hulk remarks

shehulk-mayhew

Stan Lee scoffs at screenwriter David S. Goyer’s suggestion that She-Hulk was created as “a giant green porn star that only the Hulk could fuck,” responding that, “Only a nut would even think of that.”

“Never for an instant did I want her as a love interest for Hulk,” Lee, who with artist John Buscema introduced She-Hulk in 1980 as Bruce Banner’s cousin, told The Washington Post.

Goyer made the controversial comment on the latest episode of the Scriptnotes podcast during a game in which he and other screenwriters randomly drew the name of a superhero and were asked how they would handle that character in a contemporary adaptation. When the conversation turned to She-Hulk, the Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice writer floated his “theory” about the character’s origins as “the extension of the male power fantasy.”

“So the Hulk was this classic male power fantasy,” Goyer said. “It’s like, most of the people reading comic books were these people like me who were just these little kids who were getting the shit beaten out of them every day — ‘What if I became giant, and could clap my hands and create a sonic boom?’ And so then they created She-Hulk, right? Who was still smart. So it was like, I think She-Hulk is the chick that you could fuck if you were Hulk, you know what I’m saying? … She-Hulk was the extension of the male power fantasy. So it’s like, if I’m going to be this geek that becomes the Hulk, then let’s create a giant green porn star that only the Hulk could fuck.”

Unsurprisingly, Lee’s recollection of She-Hulk’s creation differs greatly from the scenario presented by Goyer. “I know I was looking for a new female superhero, and the idea of an intelligent Hulk-type grabbed me,” he told The Post. (The generally accepted backstory has more to do with Marvel’s concerns that CBS might create a spinoff of the live-action Incredible Hulk television series starring a female counterpart, a la Bionic Woman, giving the network ownership of the character.)

Current She-Hulk writer Charles Soule alluded to Goyer’s comments — and the subsequent Internet backlash — last night on Twitter, saying, “Working on She-Hulk #8 today. Man, she’s a great lady. [...] Don’t spread the negative. If people are confused about a character’s value, don’t waste time hating them. Skip outrage, try outREACH.”

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Comments

68 Comments

Talmidge Mcgulliger

May 22, 2014 at 8:05 am

Kick his ass Stan.

Goyer’s………views…..tells you a whole lot about the mental status over at DC. Batman v Superman is gonna suck hard.

Simon DelMonte

May 22, 2014 at 8:25 am

Amen, Charles Soule.

And this is a good moment to urge everyone to try Soule and Pulido’s She-Hulk comic. Looking for a kick-ass, amazing, bright, funny heroine? Look no further!!

Pablo Rodriguez Pacheco

May 22, 2014 at 8:33 am

@Simon DelMonte: Too bad the art on current She-Hulk is extremely distracting and not fitting for the character whatsoever.

Completely disagree. The Jen has never looked better.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s more or less how the hypocrite has written Wonder Woman in his Batman vs Superman script: most likely as a female super object to be won over between the two male heroes… with limited dialogue

I haven’t read any of the new series (big fan of the Dan Slott series), but Charles Soule’s response was pretty classy.

@ Pablo Rodriguez Pacheco, Are you kidding? Javier Pulido’s style fits that book perfectly. Lighthearted and smart, just like Jen. And his panel layouts are brilliant.

That’s why he’s the man.

Goyer’s comments are pretty depressing, to be perfectly honest. I applaud Charles Soule for his words. Perhaps it’s time for David S. Goyer, and everyone else at DC, to just admit that they’re not in a boys’ club.

I agree with Stan Lee, but you can’t take Charles Soule too seriously. This is the guy who’s pushing Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple instead of Lois and Clark. Wonder Woman has been reduced to nothing more than Superman’s girlfriend, a superpowered woman who only a superpowered guy like Superman can fuck (which coincidentally sounds exactly what Goyer is taking about regarding Hulk and She-Hulk).

Why WB/DC keep hiring this guy is beyond me. Nolan made the Dark Knight movies work, not Goyer.

Goyer had a hand in the following horrible comic book movies:
– Man of Steel
– Blade 2
– Blade Trinity
– Ghostrider
– Ghostrider 2
– Nick Fury: Agent of Shield (Hoff)

This list is enough to warrant his being removed from any future comic book movie productions.

Have to disagree with you “catsmeow.” It’s not like he makes those decisions. It was DC, mainly Geoff Johns who made them a couple in the pages of Justice League. I bet if somebody offered you a job writing prolific characters like Superman & Wonder Woman you wouldn’t flinch. It’ll look great on his resume & whether you like it or not, his Superman/Wonder Woman is receiving some of the biggest praise. Charles is a phenomenal writer. I’m sure if the book was named Superman/Lois Lane he’d be doing just as good.

Whoah whoah whoah!!!! Blade 2 kicked ASSES!

Still, I can see Goyer’s point, if you look through the fanboy prism. It is an over-simplification, of course, but looking at female characters of that time (well, any time, really, except the modern times), they WERE basically either weak Hollywood screaming types or sex objects. A leap from that to empowered nerds hittin’ the green is not so prepostrous (obviously, Stan put that to rest, but as a theory, it could hold water). So, I’m not reading much into it, and neither should anyone else. Last thing I want is rampant PC in the comics world.

Claude Parish

May 22, 2014 at 9:36 am

Maybe cousins screw over at Goyer’s shack. Or maybe he just likes the color green on boys only.

Claude Parish

May 22, 2014 at 9:37 am

P.S. I seriously doubt that a lot of “men” were reading She Hulk at her debut. Probably sperm filled boys, though.

Pulido is awful.

Not sure about his theory on the Hulk. It’s a pretty obvious Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde.

This is what happens when a misogynist pretends to be a feminist.

Does he also think SuperGirl was only conceived as a sex toy for Superman?

what I see in the comics today are women who give me the same impression as porn stars mechanically mouthing “oh yeah, come in.”

011001010100011101

May 22, 2014 at 9:42 am

By the way, just want to say, the She Hulk comic is a really wonderful read, if you haven’t picked up an issue, I recommend you do. I am very excited about this blue file story line unfolding.

I’m glad SOMEBODY responded to these horrible statements. I hope WB dumps this guy immediately.

Sadly, I couldn’t get into the new She-Hulk series. Mr. Soule is a fine writer, but 3 issues in and I wasn’t hooked. The art just turned me off from the start (though I’ve enjoyed the artist elsewhere). Further saddened because it’s one of the last $2.99 books in the mainstream and I really wanted to support it.

I think Goyer is way off. I think Stan put him in his place but if he truly read the first dozen issues featuring She Hulk there is no way anyone would come to this conclusion. Yes she’s a sexy hulk but that doesn’t have implications outside of that fact otherwise ALL female characters could be construed as just another male characters sexy counterpart and conquest. This makes me concerned for the quality of the Superman V Batman movie plot lines.

Rog the Bodge

May 22, 2014 at 9:44 am

In the 1970’s, Batgirl was a US senator, Wonder Woman lost her powers (briefly) and still kicked ass (and leading feminists of the time rightfully complained about her losing her powers), Power Girl was introduced, Misty Knight and her crew beat punks all over New York, and so on and so forth.

In David S Goyer’s works, women stand around and do nothing much at all (he had Jennifer Connelly do diddly squat as a female lead…now that’s anti-talent if you ask me).

I think we can see which medium has better views on women. And that’s even counting all the dumb-ass casual misogyny comics can be so full of at times.

Truth is, I bet this is all just him having been booted off all the superhero stuff he’s been working on, and yelling and waving his impotent fist at his former employers before news gets out.

@Talmidge-

You, sir, have the greatest name ever. What a great reference to a great show!

Points to Soule for class.

Goyer is an idiot, and if this is the guy WB is counting on to bring the JL to the big screen, God help us.

Wow. So the most interesting part of this is that She-Hulk was created to keep copyright and ownership with Marvel. Once again, someone affiliated with DC has proven that he does not understand the characters; or at best misunderstands the characters. If that is the way he looks at She-Hulk, I wonder what his opinion of Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batgirl, Batwoman and the rest might be. Is it influenced by the era that these characters were created in? Yes, we all know that misogyny exists, what makes us different is how we handle it.

Not only does he completely misunderstand She-hulk, he also doesn’t get the Hulk either

Mr. Goyer plainly has pretty limited comic knowledge, some pretty hateful attitudes towards people that do and some weird attitudes about women. It is FAN-tastic that he is the person that DC/WB has tabbed to finally create a big screen version of Wonder Woman.

For the record, She-Hulk is a character who has gone through a lot of iterations over the years. The Lee-Buscema has very little in common with the more fan service-y character that John Byrne worked on. None of those iterations have ever been huge successes, but none of them have ever been concubines for the Hulk.

ChristianNYC .

May 22, 2014 at 10:11 am

That’s the problem right there ina “David S Goyer nut shell” that guy does not know what he is doing at all. This is coming from.a huge Wonder Woman and DC fan…Marvel kicks DC’s ass in both comics and movies…honestly DC please give it up already. DC has sexist employers working for the them

His assumption of inbreeding makes me wonder about his own lineage.

I really hope he isn’t allowed to write Supergirl into the movies now. Yuck.

Derek Metaltron

May 22, 2014 at 10:23 am

I really would love to see what Angie Hammon thinks of Goyer’s comments about She Hulk, she’s wanted to play the character for years and is a huge fan of She Hulk.

Bizzle, please stop judging an entire company based on the idiotic comments of one person. Besides, Goyer isn’t the only person writing the script for BvS. Chris Terrio is doing rewrites on it,

Goyer’s comments say more about his old, white, entitled, fanboy mentality of exclusion than they do anything about the character.

And I’m glad people like Stan and Soule responded to his crass commentary. Seriously, this from someone who works for a company that’s doing Bombshell covers, which are more tasteful than any cover representations of women in any of their comics? Yeah. Maybe Marvel isn’t all saintly and lily pure on the subject of treatment of women but they’re trying. Which is more than I’d say about DC or their representations or suppressions of minority characters.

Should we start wagering on how horribly Jaime is going to die now that Geoff Johns is recreating Blue Beetle?

SHE HULK IS BANNERS Cousin YOU IDIOT!

Dave Anderson

May 22, 2014 at 10:59 am

I’ve generally liked David Goyer’s work, but his response to She-Hulk seems pretty phallocentric.

“So the Hulk was this classic male power fantasy .. And so then they created She-Hulk, right? … So it was like, I think She-Hulk is the chick that you could fuck if you were Hulk, you know what I’m saying? … She-Hulk was the extension of the male power fantasy.”

If a character’s not a man, then that character must be there to be fucked, right? Dude, that is very uncool.

I really don’t see how anyone can say they truly love Javier Pulido’s artwork. I suppose in a kitschy “wish I was Kirby” kind of way, it has a little appeal. The man isn’t close to Kirby’s level though. His poses and “movement” are unnatural, characters are stiff, and his proportions are usually way off and change from frame to frame. I respect the man for doing what he loves, but I honestly cannot see the appeal. It looks a lot like what I used to draw in sixth grade when I tried to emulate Kirby’s work. If only I knew then what I know now, I could have half assed my way to a career as a comic book artist, the Liefeld/Pulido way.

This Goyer really did some bad drugs, didn’t he? His brain seems to have left him. That and/or he is looking to any form of attention and to make news. His ploy may have worked but you don’t always want negative attention.

She hulk is a comic book idea. Goyer is/was a comic book writer. “Narrowing” or ” boxing” her in to type cast as a figure of porn is an affront to his own creativity.

I really like DC comics, but I think Goyer was way out of line. Everyone knows She-Hulk/ Jennifer Banner is Bruce’s cousin. Like the first comment said and I qoute “kick his ass Stan”.

Brian from Canada

May 22, 2014 at 11:40 am

@Jesus:

Goyer’s comments do not relate him to that audience at all. Goyer’s comments in the past reveal he may have been a comic fan as a child but, as an adult, he shares more the belief of Hollywood that there is nothing worse than comic book fanboys who adhere so much to their classic material that they can’t accept a modern interpretation. Remember: Goyer doesn’t give us the stories we want to see, he thinks he’s giving us the stories we didn’t know we wanted to see.

You’re also mixing one “controversy” into another. The so-called “bombshell” cover of Teen Titans #1 is a poor cover period, but it’s not symbolic of the company philosophy overall: NEVER once did CBR or another news service contact DC about the cover itself, just the hate that filled the forums that followed.

DC has been FAR less suppressive of minorities in the last few years. In fact, they are doing MORE than Marvel to support characters of different minorities, what with a black Superman, Kid Flash and Hawkgirl, lesbian Batman, Lebanese Green Lantern, gay Green Lantern, and more. Adam Strange is now shown in an interracial relationship. And these are the characters in print regularly. Others, like the Korean OMAC, Hispanic Blue Beetle and Vibe, are floating around and available.

I know it’s popular to bash DC at the moment, but making such suggestions that DC is racist/sexist/whatever is just plain wrong. (DC’s administration is more diverse than Marvel’s as well.)

Was what Goyer said insulting? Yes. Was it misinformed? Yes. Was it done as a representative of WB or DC? No. And just because you work for the PARENT company doesn’t mean you represent the views of everyone else’s product in the comics subdivision.

In fairness to David S. Goyer, that “kissing cousins” possibility was explored in the Wolverine: Old Man Logan seven-parter by Mark MIllar and Steve McNiven (2008-2009). And She-Hulk was thrown out of Avengers Mansion for depraved behavior in her own series at one point! The rationale for She-Hulk; that she was the result of a blood transfusion by her gamma ray-infused cousin Bruce; was always thin. But, like Stan Lee himself has long said, the entire Marvel Universe now explains away most super powers by mutation, anyway, INCLUDING Spider-Man.

and this is the guy that will be writing MOS 2? WB better hire me, I can do a better job

The She Hulk and the Hulk I have never even thought of in terms of sex. Just angry power. Too mad some outrage and film success couldn’t be directed toward real problems in the word like Citizens United, Global Warming and Fukishima, etc. Imagine fair elections where only people voted and all chose to and we had a real Democracy and no influence by Fox News and the Koch Brothers and their ilk. Now if Batwoman and Superman got it on it could be a thing of beauty. Self control there bud. Yin women. masculine men what a concept.

mad=bad word=world (ah to edit)

She-Hulk as a potential love interest for Hulk. That’s as preposterous as Princess Leia kissing her brother. Oh wait….

She-Hulk is my favorite Marvel character. I own the complete run of all her cancelled series over the years. I can only hope this brings awareness to the character.

“The thing is, the women like these movies as much as the guys. So we don’t have to knock ourselves out finding a female.” Stan Lee when asked about why there are less Marvel movies with females as central characters than movies with central male heroes. who’s the asshole now?

Stan is the Man while Steve Ditko rules.
David S. Goyer knows Mark Millar?
‘Old Man Logan’ revealed the incestuous relationship Jennifer Walters and Bruce Banner had.
AND THAT WAS THE FUTURE.
Was the comment meant by Goyer to persuade marvel comics to establish that ‘Old Man Logan’ IS part of the time-line of Earth 616?
A service for his very good friend Mark Millar to vouch his approval for Jennifer and Bruce having sex?
He could not stand that ‘Old Man Logan’ was a WHAT IF? story?
Let it go Goyer.
Instead have faith that Mark Millar will make his incest mark in the near future with either creator-owned work or by another super hero comic book publisher.

nice after all its common knowledge stans memory is not really good. plus the fact always though she hulk was created so no one else could create a female hulk and have the rights. marvel films should make goyer eat crow by going ahead now with a she hulk film or tv series.

@Cheeno Anleu,

Sorry, but you’re wrong. I am a Clois shipper first and foremost. I also have integrity. I would never write about SM/WW as a couple.

Giant green cousins who are also lovers and can only love one another. I would like to see the power(s) their children would produce, if you know they don’t come out slack jawed.

It’s hilarious that some commenters are now hailing Stan Lee as a paragon of truth.

Stan Lee.

I love the guy but he’s as honest as Bob Kane. Every second word out of his mouth is bullshit.

Think what you like, but the truth is that She-Hulk was originally conceived as a teenage male power fantasy, ripped dresses and bulging breasts. She may not be like that now, but that is how she, and most female characters from the 70s were conceived.

Stop bringing up Supergirl – she was clearly developed for little girls when she came out. It’s obvious by the way she ws depicted (non-sexual) and the storylines.

Stan Lee isn’t even in the same league as Bob Kane. Kane literally could not tell the truth.

The Truth –

Maybe I just don’t have the right fetish, but the earlier She-Hulk didn’t look all that sexy, for a comic book character. She was sort of brutish-looking. She was not all that bad in the first issue with John Buscema, but from the 2nd issue on, with Mike Vosburg, well, the man himself:

Vosburg later remarked, “The oddest thing about that book was that Frank drew really beautiful women, I drew really beautiful women, and yet, the She-Hulk was never overly attractive.”

It was only later that they started to pretty her up. By the time Byrne worked with her, she was a bombshell. But in the first years, not really.

Charles Soule’s comments are the best anyone can put out there. He really is a classy guy. Mr. Goyer should take notes.

To the couple of commenters who’ve brought up Supergirl, need I remind you that, back in the 1960s, when it seemed to be Supergirl’s raison d’etre to find a girlfriend/wife for Kal, the climax of one of the stories was that IF IT WEREN’T AGAINST KRYPTONIAN LAW, Superman would’ve married Supergirl since (in Kal’s own words) she would be the “perfect woman” for him. Kal pointed out that, on Earth, there were many places where cousins can marry but not on Krypton (of course, everything else Kal did was by EARTH customs and laws–not Krypton’s). And I would also point out that first cousins are STILL LEGALLY PERMITTED to get married in many parts of the US.

(Hell, even on “The Big Bang Theory,” we know that Howard lost his virginity to his [second] cousin.)

Clockwork_Fish

May 22, 2014 at 4:55 pm

I’m thinking Mr. Goyer’s cousins should probably be concerned here. He maaayyyy have some issues.

Also, even when She Hulk was being portrayed in an overtly sexual fashion, it was usually done tongue in cheek. She was a satirical joke character, like Deadpool or Lobo before he had that radical fun-ectomy.

Stan Lee rules, as always. I sincerely fear for Wonder Woman in the DC cinematic universe. This guy doesn’t get what superwomen are about.

As horrible as his comments are…hes not unknowledgeable of the medium at all…he cowrote possibly the best modern revival of any title/group – JSA with Robinson and then later Johns. I really have no clue as to why this came out of his mouth other than maybe he had a bit of the drinky-drinky beforehand.

THANOS

Wow, I didn’t realized that David wrote all those terrible movies. Maybe he should be fired. However (and I know I’m in the minority on this) I think that David did a pretty good job on the Man of Steel. I’m also looking forward to this upcoming movie, despite the understandable critisim it has gotten thus far.

Instead of spreading the hate, I look at it this way: Any given character can be subject to multiple interpretations. The She-Hulk can represent many different things to many different people, depending upon their individual tastes, concerns, status in society, political leanings, and personal/psychological needs.

Jen Walters can be a strong symbol of feminine empowerment, much as Wonder Woman or the current Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers, the former Ms. Marvel) are, and her sassy, strong personality that matches the strength of her muscles, along with her great intelligence and quick wit, fills that iconic role quite well.

She can also serve as a sex symbol, because let’s face it, she is really sexy, and only the most biased PC attitudes should label any admiring guy a “misogynist” simply for admitting he finds a beautiful woman to be sexy; you can find a woman to be very sexy and also admire her character traits at the same time; it’s not a mutually exclusive thing. How often are lesbians or bi women ever taken to task or accused of “objectifying” other women for openly admiring the physical beauty of the female form? Sexist bias and stereotyping are too often aimed at *both* genders, not just women.

Jen Walters can also be interpreted as a greatly empowering archetype of the individual who starts in the shadow of another, and breaks free to establish their own unique identity, as our Shulkie has certainly surpassed being viewed as a mere feminized extension of the Hulk. In fact, she has arguably always had distinct traits, even if they weren’t well realized in her initial series.

She can be interpreted by others as a mere gimmick designed to cash in on the success of the Hulk, and to attract more female readers to super-hero comics in the process. Many certainly viewed her that way when she was first created, and the big wigs at the TV networks certainly seemed to; it was only after her original series ran its course and caught the attention of many more readers through her association with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four that a large audience finally came to see her as much, much more than a simple gimmick.

So, yea, I don’t think She-Hulk, or any other character, should be seen representing just one specific thing that the original creator specifically intended, because all strong and enduring fictional characters serve as archetypes that can be interpreted in many different ways. Beauty isn’t the only concept that’s in the eye of the beholder; interpretive perception of icons can be just as subjective.

What a mean, disgusting and weird thing to say! Shame on you, David! You had better clean up your attitude when it comes to Wonder Woman and other female characters before the Justice League comes out.

PS: Why I loved Man of Steel

Superman got to be really super powerful, super decent and touchingly human. (I loved when he beat on Zod for going after his human mother. Good for you,Superman!)
Lois Lane wasn’t a snoopy, snobby clueless idiot. She supported Kael and helped save the world too.
The actor’s body looked like he could bench press a truck. It made me believe a man could toss someone through a building
Jor-el was a bad ass
Zod was a racist jerk . I didn’t cry when he died. (Yaaaay) but I understood why Kael did.
Perry White wasn’t, (haha) and he was brave and smart.His remark to Lois after she killed her story was very balanced and sensible.
Yes, Superman killed Zod but that ^$@# wasn’t going to stop. What else could Ka-el do?

Box Office Mojo-

Man of Steel Worldwide: $668,045,518

Batman Begins-Worldwide: $374,218,673

The two “origin” movies compared side by side worldwide did pretty well-with Man of Steel coming out on top. So obviously most people didn’t think this film sucked.

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